Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

[BobRyan]

The new covenant in Jeremiah is future. The new covenant in Hebrews is now. They are not the same covenant.

You may wish to speculate in that direction but as I have stated before everyone sees Jeremiah being quoted in Heb 8 and knows that it is the same subject, same event, and there is no Bible statement about "Two New Covenants".

So if your statement was that you believe in two new Covenants and one of them is future - while the other one is not - I missed it.

In any case - I stand by my statement that the rest of the New Covenant Christians on this board - including the gentile ones do not speculate about 'two new covenants' we just say we are "under the New Covenant".

 

[Meowzltov]

bump

 

[Meowzltov]

we don't have a Bible based reason for inventing another weekly one.

To which my response is that the Church has the authority to establish new feast days.

 

[Meowzltov]

So if your statement was that you believe in two new Covenants and one of them is future - while the other one is not - I missed it.

I should have clarified it before. My bad.

 

[BobRyan]

To which my response is that the Church has the authority to establish new feast days.

Suppose the SDA church decided to establish a new feast day - Thursday evening - as the day to celebrate communion since that is when Christ actually did it. But it is on a 7 day cycle -- totally without logic since nothing about that was on a 7 day cycle.

Then "At best" we have a celbration that SDAs might be interested in - but no one else. Hence the lack of interest in days that the RCC makes up (and there are many) - by those that are non-RCC.

What is more - that newly made up annual celebration - would not "take the place" of one of the 10 commandments - would not need to "transfer the solemnity of the Sabbath commandment to Thursday".

It would simply be "an addition".

If it were to mess around with the actual Law of God - then we would be talking about Mark 7 -- "again"

 

[Meowzltov]

Suppose the SDA church decided to establish a new feast day

The SDA Church does not have Apostolic succession. I don't think it would be legitimate.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA Church does not have Apostolic succession. I don't think it would be legitimate.

The bible does not have it either - except in the case of Judas in Acts 1.

So it would not be legitimate for any church to then make it up.

That aside - you did not address the point in the post.

 

[BobRyan]

To agree with me that sometime after the Bible was written - after the first century - man made traditions came along and edited the Law of God "misapplying the sanctity of the Sabbath Commandment to some other day of the week" is to agree with most of the opening premise on page 1 of this thread.

Would you agree?

 

[Meowzltov]

To agree with me that sometime after the Bible was written - after the first century - man made traditions came along and edited the Law of God "misapplying the sanctity of the Sabbath Commandment to some other day of the week" is to agree with most of the opening premise on page 1 of this thread.

Would you agree?

This was not a break. This was a slow process where you can watch the transition. It didn't just suddenly appear in the second century.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To agree with me that sometime after the Bible was written - after the first century - man made traditions came along and edited the Law of God "misapplying the sanctity of the Sabbath Commandment to some other day of the week" is to agree with most of the opening premise on page 1 of this thread.

Would you agree?

Actually, I am much more interested in the evolution of the Sabbath observance in your own denomination. Obviously, the SDA does not keep the Sabbath as commanded by God in the Pentateuch.

 

[Meowzltov]

Actually, I am much more interested in the evolution of the Sabbath observance in your own denomination. Obviously, the SDA does not keep the Sabbath as commanded by God in the Pentateuch.

Give him the details. The rest of us would love to hear this.

 

[BobRyan]

As for returning to the actual topic of this thread --

"The Day of the LORD" and the Lord's Day are poles apart. The Day of the LORD is a period of Divine wrath and judgments. The Lord's Day is the first day of the week,

Can we "quote you" on that? Because we have no quote for that in the actual Bible when it comes to "week day 1" and "the Lord's Day"

Why don't you do a study on the Lord's Day in the actual Bible?

" The Sabbath ... The Holy Day of the Lord" Is 58:13
"The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28
"I was in the Spirit on the LORD's day" Rev 1

And "the SEVENTH day IS the Sabbath of the LORD" Ex 20

Yes not ONE text saying"
"Week day 1 IS the LORD's Day"
"Remember week day 1 to keep it holy"
"The new testament Sabbath is week day 1"
"Therefore God sanctified and blessed week day 1"
"God TRANSFERRED the blessing and sanctity of the Sabbath to week day 1"

As we all know.

 

[BobRyan]

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
Which is how this statement in the OP comes in

====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.



And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??



Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Possibly one more reason why the "sola scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 gets some push back on certain threads by those who agree with the RCC's right to do such things.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, I am much more interested in the evolution of the Sabbath observance in your own denomination. Obviously, the SDA does not keep the Sabbath as commanded by God in the Pentateuch.

1. we never take instruction on the Sabbath from those who reject it.
2. The Adventists begin as a "sunday keeping" group but are lead to the Bible Sabbath through Bible study and through the witness of a Seventh-day Baptist by the name of Rachel Oaks who asked one of the Adventist pastors some very pointed questions about the "Bible details" on the TEN Commandments and the Bible Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Recall that in the 1800's the war against God's Ten Commandments was not as open and as direct as it is today. So even sunday keeping Adventists had a more willing spirit when it came to God's TEN Commandments - the moral law of God

For example:


QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68702215, member: 235244"]Even D.L. Moody agrees that the Sabbath was binding on all mankind - starting in Eden.

========================================
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 67029858, member: 235244"]- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandm[FONT=&quot]ent sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the en[FONT=&quot]ding concluding segment - that might help she[FONT=&quot]d even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Notice how the "Baptist Confession of Faith" makes a similar case for the "moral law of God" and the TEN Commandments?

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68702232, member: 235244"]


Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19

Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
-- CH Spurgeon

The Perpetuity of the Law of God

Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.​

​

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .​

​

Section 19​

. The Law of God ​

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. ​

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it ​

Baptist Confession of Faith

Section 22.


Point 7

7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
​

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Now wonder New Covenant saints in both the OT and NT would have the "Law of God written on the mind and heart" --

we saw it in Jer 31:31-33 and in Heb 8


Jer 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”



Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete

All those New Covenant Christians reading this - will see just what is being quoted in Hebrews 8 and will notice whether they themselves are gentiles

 

[bbbbbbb]

1. we never take instruction on the Sabbath from those who reject it.
2. The Adventists begin as a "sunday keeping" group but are lead to the Bible Sabbath through Bible study and through the witness of a Seventh-day Baptist by the name of Rachel Oaks who asked one of the Adventist pastors some very pointed questions about the "Bible details" on the TEN Commandments and the Bible Sabbath.

Thanks. Now, I see how you folks got your Saturday beliefs. You simply transferred nineteenth-century Sunday practices to Saturday.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks. Now, I see how you folks got your Saturday beliefs. You simply transferred nineteenth-century Sunday practices to Saturday.

No what I said was "we read the Bible".

The Bible was not written in the 19th century.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No what I said was "we read the Bible".

The Bible was not written in the 19th century.

Here is what you posted -

1. we never take instruction on the Sabbath from those who reject it.
2. The Adventists begin as a "sunday keeping" group but are lead to the Bible Sabbath through Bible study and through the witness of a Seventh-day Baptist by the name of Rachel Oaks who asked one of the Adventist pastors some very pointed questions about the "Bible details" on the TEN Commandments and the Bible Sabbath.

I do not see anywhere that you said "we read the Bible". You did provide some historical data regarding how your denomination developed its Sabbath doctrine. From what you posted it came from a Seventh-Day Baptist named Rachel Oaks. Their Saturday activities are essentially the same as other Protestant denominational Sunday activities. Can you tell us exactly what you do different on Saturdays that other, conservative Protestant denominations do not do on Sunday? Thank you.