2 more school (college) shootings right now. Texas and Arizona.

[tadoflamb]

Pretty cool, huh?

Don't go to college without one.

 

[Erose]

Actually what I said, is every criminal who owns a gun got it from a legal gun owner.

While it should be criminal, it's being done legally.

You'd think responsible gun owners would be the most adamant about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, but instead they want to keep the status quo, which involves the flow of firearms going unchecked into the hands of criminals. And all this because they're whining about some perceived infringement on their rights.

Forget about every one else's right to the pursuit life, liberty and happiness. Let the body count rise.

So now you claiming gun owners want criminals to have guns. Digging deeper it seems. Seriously does it make any sense to you that someone actually wants something that probably cost around $500.00 stolen from them? How stupid do you think people are? You think putting guns in a safe makes them impossible to steal? Do you think that gun dealers want and advocate thieves breaking into their establishment and stealing $1000s of their inventory? Do you think that if the government cannot control the illegal drug trade, do you think they can stop guns from coming over our border with the drug traffickers?

You can take every single gun out of every single home in this country, and you know what you get? Only criminals owning guns. Everyone else a walking victim just waiting to be targeted.

 

[tadoflamb]

The only evidence is that all youth suicides in our community in the last year have been by gunshot. Maybe kids don't know enough to choose the right meds, and some are too young to drive to a bridge.

Evidence? Seriously you think it's easier to put a gun in your mouth and pull a trigger, than to jump off a bridge or overdose? This lot easier to overdose and a lot less painful I would imagine.

It's a lot easier to pull the trigger. Less time to change your mind.

 

[Michie]

I just read an article she sent me in a PM. Her area is inordinately high in suicides for kids and young people. She isn't pulling your leg. There is a very high rate of gun ownership in her area as well. The two have to be connected.

Sorry I haven't seen any evidence to support the wild claims that you are making. The number one and two causes of accidental deaths of children by far is getting run over and drowning. Most suicides of young teens is from suffocation not guns. Older teens yes prefer firearms, but suffocation is not that far behind though.

So if you want to save lives get rid of cars and swimming pools.

View attachment 164227

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Sorry I haven't seen any evidence to support the wild claims that you are making. The number one and two causes of accidental deaths of children by far is getting run over and drowning. Most suicides of young teens is from suffocation not guns. Older teens yes prefer firearms, but suffocation is not that far behind though.

So if you want to save lives get rid of cars and swimming pools.

View attachment 164227

Here's some evidence of what I'm claiming
http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
I'd like to see the evidence that suffocation is the most popular method of suicide in young teens. What about younger children?

And why is it assumed that people who care about the safety issues of kids and firearms don't care about kids and pools, or kids in cars? I had child locks on cabinets, and don't let my kids near a pool unsupervised by a strong adult swimmer. I'm careful about car seat usage and seatbelts. So why is it crazy of me to want to have no guns or only locked up guns?

 

[tadoflamb]

So now you claiming gun owners want criminals to have guns. Digging deeper it seems. Seriously does it make any sense to you that someone actually wants something that probably cost around $500.00 stolen from them? How stupid do you think people are? You think putting guns in a safe makes them impossible to steal? Do you think that gun dealers want and advocate thieves breaking into their establishment and stealing $1000s of their inventory? Do you think that if the government cannot control the illegal drug trade, do you think they can stop guns from coming over our border with the drug traffickers?

You can take every single gun out of every single home in this country, and you know what you get? Only criminals owning guns. Everyone else a walking victim just waiting to be targeted.

Of course not. You'd think that responsible gun owners don't want criminals to have guns.

What they don't want is an infringement on their rights, and currently those rights mean they can sell a gun to anyone they want to at any time.

That's how criminals get guns. Either they stole it from a legal gun owner, or the legal gun owner gave/sold it to them.

You can jump through all the hoops you want, and you can misrepresent my position all you want, but the end result of all this is bodies are piling up, because of you whining about your 'rights'.

As a responsible gun owner, you're in the best position to exact change, but you refuse to do anything but pray for the families of the dead while dismissing them as collateral damage because you don't want any perceived infringement on your rights. If you're not doing any parking lot deals at gun shows, your rights aren't going to be infringed upon at all.

 

[Erose]

I just read an article she sent me in a PM. Her area is inordinately high in suicides for kids and young people. She isn't pulling your leg. There is a very high rate of gun ownership in her area as well. The two have to be connected.

In what way? Seriously Michie, I get the point that teens in her area prefer firearms to commit suicide, which is a tragedy; but what evidence is there that suicides are up because guns are available?

What part is not clicking here? A firearm is a tool, made by man for a purpose. If you take a gun and load it and set it on a table, guess what it will not go off on its own. It will not go out and seek someone to kill. It requires a person to pick it up and make a conscious decision to do harm to others or themselves. Thinking that people aren't going to make that same conscious decision even when a firearm is present, is an insane proposition. If what is being claimed that guns are at fault, which in itself is an oxy moron, then why was the same things happening before guns were invented?

 

[tadoflamb]

In what way? Seriously Michie, I get the point that teens in her area prefer firearms to commit suicide, which is a tragedy; but what evidence is there that suicides are up because guns are available?

What part is not clicking here? A firearm is a tool, made by man for a purpose. If you take a gun and load it and set it on a table, guess what it will not go off on its own. It will not go out and seek someone to kill. It requires a person to pick it up and make a conscious decision to do harm to others or themselves. Thinking that people aren't going to make that same conscious decision even when a firearm is present, is an insane proposition. If what is being claimed that guns are at fault, which in itself is an oxy moron, then why was the same things happening before guns were invented?

I've heard that tired argument many times before, but the thing is, gun lovers make guns look cool and they become really attractive to those who should't have them. Take a look at Flagstaff, Tucson, Roseburg, Sandy Hook and Columbine. The one thing those killers had in common they have in common with all gun lovers. They all think guns are cool. It's the gun culture of death of which you're playing an unwitting part.

 

[Michie]

I think safer and more responsible gun ownership is in order. The analogy of guns being a tool can apply to anything. The whole point is being a responsible gun owner and owning one safely. Nobody said guns are at fault unless I missed something. What is at fault is the mindset of some people that own guns. Accidents happen even with the most responsible owner. Unfortunately most seem to attach their identity to owning guns. Which is kind of sick imo. I own a hammer which is a tool but that is what it is, a tool. I use it responsibly and put it away. I do not let my life revolve around it nor do I make a religion of it and expose kids to it as if it is something out of a video game. Which is pretty close to what some do. No, it is not the gun but the people that can so easily own them. I'm afraid we have opened a Pandora's box and this is not something we are going to be able to control. Even if laws are passed. Let's face it, we glorify violence on our society. Watch entertainment. It's everywhere. It's cool to have a gun for some.

In what way? Seriously Michie, I get the point that teens in her area prefer firearms to commit suicide, which is a tragedy; but what evidence is there that suicides are up because guns are available?

What part is not clicking here? A firearm is a tool, made by man for a purpose. If you take a gun and load it and set it on a table, guess what it will not go off on its own. It will not go out and seek someone to kill. It requires a person to pick it up and make a conscious decision to do harm to others or themselves. Thinking that people aren't going to make that same conscious decision even when a firearm is present, is an insane proposition. If what is being claimed that guns are at fault, which in itself is an oxy moron, then why was the same things happening before guns were invented?

 

[tadoflamb]

May 30, 2010 12:00 am Gloria DiCenco was chatting amiably with a few Italian speakers at Beyond Bread on North Campbell Avenue on April 20 when armed men began coming in.

First there were two, then more. Finally, maybe 20 people carrying holstered guns and, in some cases, ammunition, arrived and ordered food, DiCenso said. A hush fell over the restaurant, she said, and her group's happy mood turned tense.

It happened that her Italian conversation club crossed paths with a group of local advocates of "open carry" - unconcealed carrying of firearms. And the open-carry advocates saw their Beyond Bread dinner quite differently - as noticeably unremarkable.

"That's the whole point - nothing happened," said J.D. "Duke" Schechter, who was among the group of gun carriers.

http://tucson.com/business/local/ea...cle_03967e08-1d5d-59a6-a702-4c9e84669630.html

Yeah, nothing happened except a once happy mood turned tense. And it showed up in the newspaper.

What a bunch of jerks.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Sorry I haven't seen any evidence to support the wild claims that you are making. The number one and two causes of accidental deaths of children by far is getting run over and drowning. Most suicides of young teens is from suffocation not guns. Older teens yes prefer firearms, but suffocation is not that far behind though.

So if you want to save lives get rid of cars and swimming pools.

View attachment 164227

Speaking of evidence, a quick search shows guns are the most common, followed by overdosing on prescription drugs ...I don't see the evidence that suffocation is number one.

 

[SolomonVII]

Guns do not cause suicide. If that was the case then America would have more suicides than Sweden or Japan.

Depression and hopelessness cause suicide. Feelings of uselessness and lack of purposes cause suicides Bullying causes suicide, and cyber bullying increases this trend. Shame and a loss of honor causes suicide. Anger and revenging against people that love you by taking your own life causes suicide. Attention seeking and reckless drama seeking causes suicides.

In regions of high gun ownership, guns become the method of choice for suicide.
But there are always ways to take your own life, once that decision is made. People in countries with low gun ownership can and do kill themselves at higher rates than people in countries with high gun ownership. All that it really takes is enough whiskey to pass out on a railroad track.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Guns do not cause suicide. If that was the case then America would have more suicides than Sweden or Japan.

Depression and hopelessness cause suicide. Feelings of uselessness and lack of purposes cause suicides Bullying causes suicide, and cyber bullying increases this trend. Shame and a loss of honor causes suicide. Anger and revenging against people that love you by taking your own life causes suicide. Attention seeking and reckless drama seeking causes suicides.

In regions of high gun ownership, guns become the method of choice for suicide.
But there are always ways to take your own life, once that decision is made. People in countries with low gun ownership can and do kill themselves at higher rates than people in countries with high gun ownership. All that it really takes is enough whiskey to pass out on a railroad track.

Whiskey is hard to come by for a fifth grader. Harder than a gun. My focus in all my comments are on youth suicides, and not that guns cause them, but that access to guns means kids have an easy method and may be successful on the first impulsive try before they can receive help for the cause.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Obama, tell us again about how gun free zones at school make us all safer, while you have armed guards guarding your daughters at school.

 

[Erose]

Here's some evidence of what I'm claiming
http://m.aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
I'd like to see the evidence that suffocation is the most popular method of suicide in young teens. What about younger children?

See post 220.

And why is it assumed that people who care about the safety issues of kids and firearms don't care about kids and pools, or kids in cars? I had child locks on cabinets, and don't let my kids near a pool unsupervised by a strong adult swimmer. I'm careful about car seat usage and seatbelts. So why is it crazy of me to want to have no guns or only locked up guns?

Because no one is talking about it. Is there any thread here on this forum discussing the accidental deaths of children by motor accidents or pools?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

See post 220.

Because no one is talking about it. Is there any thread here on this forum discussing the accidental deaths of children by motor accidents or pools?

Maybe nobody is talking about it because we are on the same page...I don't see anyone defending leaving bleach on the nightstand, having kids ride in cars without seatbelts, or playing in pools when they aren't competent awimmers.
People do defend having loaded, unsecured guns in the house around small children, hence the discussion

 

[Erose]

Of course not. You'd think that responsible gun owners don't want criminals to have guns.

What they don't want is an infringement on their rights, and currently those rights mean they can sell a gun to anyone they want to at any time.

That's how criminals get guns. Either they stole it from a legal gun owner, or the legal gun owner gave/sold it to them.

You can jump through all the hoops you want, and you can misrepresent my position all you want, but the end result of all this is bodies are piling up, because of you whining about your 'rights'.

So back to restricting or removing rights from law-abiding citizens again?

Seriously you have gone round and round and round here Tad.

As a responsible gun owner, you're in the best position to exact change, but you refuse to do anything but pray for the families of the dead while dismissing them as collateral damage because you don't want any perceived infringement on your rights. If you're not doing any parking lot deals at gun shows, your rights aren't going to be infringed upon at all.

First you don't know me Tad. And like I have posted before, I am doing something about it. Did I not say that I am active in 4-H shooting sports? This is the number one thing we work on in shooting sports gun safety and proper respect and usage of the weapons. So what are you doing? Hum?

 

[Erose]

Maybe nobody is talking about it because we are on the same page...I don't see anyone defending leaving bleach on the nightstand, having kids ride in cars without seatbelts, or playing in pools when they aren't competent awimmers.
People do defend having loaded, unsecured guns in the house around small children, hence the discussion

Do you see people calling for the ban for swimming pools?

 

[Erose]

http://tucson.com/business/local/ea...cle_03967e08-1d5d-59a6-a702-4c9e84669630.html

Yeah, nothing happened except a once happy mood turned tense. And it showed up in the newspaper.

What a bunch of jerks.

When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, she was being a jerk too?

 

[Erose]

Whiskey is hard to come by for a fifth grader. Harder than a gun. My focus in all my comments are on youth suicides, and not that guns cause them, but that access to guns means kids have an easy method and may be successful on the first impulsive try before they can receive help for the cause.

At least now we can agree on something. Slight shifts are important.

If you are looking for statistical data, look at where the USA sits in the world by suicide rate. It ranks 50th, which isn't good; but there is a lot of countries above or around the USA that do not have the right to own private firearms. My point being is this, if you took firearms away tomorrow, every single one of this in this country just disappeared; tomorrow someone would killed themselves, and there would be no changed in the suicide rate at all. None.

What we have to do as a society is address the elephant in the room of depression. It affects a whole lot of people, and perhaps there needs to be testing done in schools now (if there is a good test to use) to determine if a child is suffering from depression. Those are really the people who are at the greatest risk.

For all others, our kids need to learn how to take a hit. What I mean by this is that we are raising sissies today, and that is bad. Everyone of us is going to go through a time, and most probably quite a few times that life is going to punch us in the mouth and knock us down. We are not allowing our kids to learn to get off their butts and back on their feet. Kids today in my opinion are not learning this valuable trait in life. That needs to change. Personally I think the anti-bullying campaign is the number one culprit in sissifying our children.