Food for thought.

[Chriliman]

My kids were brought up as Christians and I left Christianity about 5 years ago.

Where they stand on Christianity is up to them, as they are of the age now, when they are thinking for themselves.

I'm glad you feel that way about them. After we've done our best to teach our children what we know, I think we should allow them to make their own decisions, when they're of the age.

 

[Chriliman]

A, not so random, counterquestion: why do you ask?

(I am not an atheist who claims to have once been a Christian, so your question doesn't apply to me. Just so that you don't think I don't want to answer your question.)

Was just thinking about baptism and how it is an open confession of our faith in Christ and I was just curious who here had been baptized.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Thanks for being honest about your question being random and without any plans to make a point from the responses.

It's probably the case that whether or not the point is made depends upon the answers given.

 

[Freodin]

Was just thinking about baptism and how it is an open confession of our faith in Christ

In your church perhaps. That differs between denominations, I hope you are aware?

 

[Chriliman]

How do you objectively determine if you trust someone?

That depends how much time I spend with them and they're track record of admitting when they're wrong and being open with me.

I expect the same from myself when I want someone to trust me. I'll admit when I'm wrong and I'll be open with you.

 

[Chriliman]

In your church perhaps. That differs between denominations, I hope you are aware?

I'm aware.

 

[Davian]

...
It is clear you know next to nothing about the subjects which you are attempting to speak on. Your understanding of the term holy and how it applies to God belies this and that you need to be taught these things. In order for one to be taught, they must be willing to listen.

Listen I can do. Accepting your religious opinion as fact will take some compelling evidence and reasoned argument, both of which have been in short supply.

If you are not willing then just say so, but don't come here thinking you're going to be able to say anything you feel like saying about God and not have people challenge you on it.

I have ignored a lot of people who, if having indulged in their stupidity,

Do you find that only the more intelligent members of this forum agree with you?

I would have been found to have wasted much time in so doing. I will not waste my time on you either. If you want to talk about this, man up, grow a pair,

On that subject, will you be going back to those posts of mine that you had difficulty with earlier?

and bring something to the table other than your warped views about God which are founded upon you cherry picking certain passages, out of context, and arguing that they somehow give us a complete picture of who God is.

You, of course, being the arbiter of what constitutes an accurate depiction of Christian theology, a theology that you have declined to detail in this very thread.

 

[Davian]

Random question, don't answer if you don't want to.

How many of you Atheists who claim to once be Christian were baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

If you were, what made you decide to be baptized?

If you weren't baptized, why not?

I have never believed in gods, but my parents had me baptized as a child. I do not recall the experience, and they have not been religious in all the time I have known them. It was just a ceremony to them, as it was for me when I had each of my children baptized and designated my in-laws as godparents.

 

[David Colin Gould]

That's exactly right! That was a point I was getting at.



If 200 selected verses will not give you a complete picture, then why do you think 10 will? Have you provided more than 10 verses thus far?

You were the one who asked for 10 things I saw written about God in the Bible - I did not claim that 10 would give a complete picture, as I never raised the idea of 10 in the first place.

Indeed, the first two answers I gave you were: creator of the universe and good. I am unclear how this was cherrypicking. You then demanded that I give 10 descriptions of God, and I gave my opinion of things in the Bible that indicated that God was not an entity that seemed good to me. You did not like this. But then you declined to put forward any picture of your deity at all - you wanted me to do it, but I had already done so. It was just not a picture that you agreed with.

What you have done is cherry picking because the majority of verses you have supplied speak on God's wrath and vengeance and judgment when in fact, only a fraction of the Bible's total verses speak of these attributes. You have taken the ratio of what you would consider to be "negative" attributes to what you would consider to be "positive" attributes and turned it on its head, i.e. flipped it. There are 31,102 verses in the KJV Bible. A mere fraction of these verses actually deal with God's wrath and vengeance, while the others deal with other issues.

Do you believe, however, that the fraction of verses are true, or can we just ignore them? If we can ignore the negative parts, then that certainly would change my impression of the deity that you believe exists. (And note that some Christians do set aside the negative parts - you may be one of them, as I am not sure of what your position is).

 

[David Colin Gould]

Regarding baptism, probably when I was a baby.

 

[anonymous person]

You were the one who asked for 10 things I saw written about God in the Bible - I did not claim that 10 would give a complete picture, as I never raised the idea of 10 in the first place.

Indeed, the first two answers I gave you were: creator of the universe and good. I am unclear how this was cherrypicking. You then demanded that I give 10 descriptions of God, and I gave my opinion of things in the Bible that indicated that God was not an entity that seemed good to me. You did not like this. But then you declined to put forward any picture of your deity at all - you wanted me to do it, but I had already done so. It was just not a picture that you agreed with.



Do you believe, however, that the fraction of verses are true, or can we just ignore them? If we can ignore the negative parts, then that certainly would change my impression of the deity that you believe exists. (And note that some Christians do set aside the negative parts - you may be one of them, as I am not sure of what your position is).

To speak any more on this here would be in contravention of the forum rules, i.e. to engage in General Apologetics. However, I will send you a free copy of Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster for you to read if you want me to.

It will help you better understand the context in which some of these verses you have issues with are written.

We can talk about Divine Command Theory which I happen to be an adherent of in the ethics and morality section if you want me to start a new thread there. If not, I wish you well. Let me know about the book and I will send it to you.

 

[HitchSlap]

To speak any more on this here would be in contravention of the forum rules, i.e. to engage in General Apologetics. However, I will send you a free copy of Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster for you to read if you want me to.

It will help you better understand the context in which some of these verses you have issues with are written.

We can talk about Divine Command Theory which I happen to be an adherent of in the ethics and morality section if you want me to start a new thread there. If not, I wish you well. Let me know about the book and I will send it to you.

Just another case of special pleading.

 

[David Colin Gould]

To speak any more on this here would be in contravention of the forum rules, i.e. to engage in General Apologetics. However, I will send you a free copy of Paul Copan's Is God a Moral Monster for you to read if you want me to.

It will help you better understand the context in which some of these verses you have issues with are written.

We can talk about Divine Command Theory which I happen to be an adherent of in the ethics and morality section if you want me to start a new thread there. If not, I wish you well. Let me know about the book and I will send it to you.

Surely describing the deity that you believe in is not apologetics, particularly if that entity is the basis of your philosophical world view?

Thank you for the offer of the book, but I do not think that I would gain much from it, so I would advise you to save your money. I would much rather discuss divine command theory with you in the ethics and morality section.

 

[anonymous person]

Surely describing the deity that you believe in is not apologetics, particularly if that entity is the basis of your philosophical world view?

I may start a new thread on this and try to make it so that it is not in violation of the forum rule against general apologetics.

Thank you for the offer of the book, but I do not think that I would gain much from it, so I would advise you to save your money. I would much rather discuss divine command theory with you in the ethics and morality section.

I will send you the book for free. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, for the book may have something written in it that will persuade you that your reservations about God are unfounded after all which in turn will remove that obstacle in your way which keeps you from repenting and surrendering your life to the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We can talk about Divine Command Theory which I happen to be an adherent of in the ethics and morality section if you want me to start a new thread there. If not, I wish you well. Let me know about the book and I will send it to you.

Are you sure you want to start such a thread? After all, such a thread would inevitably raise questions like this, which you have already refused to answer.

 

[David Colin Gould]

I may start a new thread on this and try to make it so that it is not in violation of the forum rule against general apologetics.

Great.

I will send you the book for free. You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, for the book may have something written in it that will persuade you that your reservations about God are unfounded after all which in turn will remove that obstacle in your way which keeps you from repenting and surrendering your life to the Lordship of Christ Jesus.

I understand that from your perspective it is extremely important that I indeed repent and that at present my soul is in grave danger. Thus, I thank you for your concern.

However, I think that you need to modify your ideas when you approach discussions with atheists on these forums - and indeed in any discussion forum on any topic about which there is disagreement. Convincing others that you are correct is rare. Indeed, I have never seen someone alter their world view because of a discussion on an internet site. Thus, I do not think that that should ever really be someone's intent. You should instead strive to understand the position of the other, questioning them where there seem to be inconsistencies - of course! - but never operating under the assumption that it is possible to change their opinion.

You need to understand that from my perspective there is no evidence that I have a soul to save, let alone evidence for a threat to it or evidence that there is an entity that has the ability or desire to save it from that threat. Thus, it is highly unlikely that I would take much time to read about a viewpoint when I am unable to question the author about points of disagreement, logical leaps that may be there that I cannot follow and so on. It is much more valuable to me to be able to talk to someone and clarify things as I go. This means that I am not interested in the book. But thanks again for the offer.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Random question, don't answer if you don't want to.

How many of you Atheists who claim to once be Christian were baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

If you were, what made you decide to be baptized?

If you weren't baptized, why not?

I was baptized as a 3 month old - ie, when I had no say in the matter. I've made sure not to make that same mistake with my own children.

I never believed any of it though - so I was never a Christian.

I was never a Muslim, Hindu, Zoroasterian, Pagan, etc, either.

 

[anonymous person]

Great.



I understand that from your perspective it is extremely important that I indeed repent and that at present my soul is in grave danger. Thus, I thank you for your concern.

However, I think that you need to modify your ideas when you approach discussions with atheists on these forums - and indeed in any discussion forum on any topic about which there is disagreement. Convincing others that you are correct is rare. Indeed, I have never seen someone alter their world view because of a discussion on an internet site. Thus, I do not think that that should ever really be someone's intent. You should instead strive to understand the position of the other, questioning them where there seem to be inconsistencies - of course! - but never operating under the assumption that it is possible to change their opinion.

You need to understand that from my perspective there is no evidence that I have a soul to save, let alone evidence for a threat to it or evidence that there is an entity that has the ability or desire to save it from that threat. Thus, it is highly unlikely that I would take much time to read about a viewpoint when I am unable to question the author about points of disagreement, logical leaps that may be there that I cannot follow and so on. It is much more valuable to me to be able to talk to someone and clarify things as I go. This means that I am not interested in the book. But thanks again for the offer.

So you don't read books unless you can talk to the author personally as you read it?

I guess you don't read too many books then.

Also, it is becoming clear to me that there is more to your rejection of Christianity than just you taking issue with a few passages in the Bible that talk about God's wrath and judgment.

To illustrate this point, I can ask you a question. Suppose that none of the passages in the bible which you find morally appalling even existed, i.e. that God never is recorded has having killed anyone in a flood or ordered anyone to kill the Amalekites and others. Suppose the doctrine of hell is never mentioned in the Bible either.

Would you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins?

The reason I am asking this is I am trying to find out the real reason behind your rejection of Jesus Christ.

 

[anonymous person]

I was baptized as a 3 month old - ie, when I had no say in the matter. I've made sure not to make that same mistake with my own children.

I never believed any of it though - so I was never a Christian.

I was never a Muslim, Hindu, Zoroasterian, Pagan, etc, either.

Please don't make that same mistake with your children. You can dunk a baby in a pool of water until he or she turns into a fish, it will be of no avail and a waste of time. So I agree with you on that decision.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So you don't read books unless you can talk to the author personally as you read it?

I guess you don't read too many books then.

Also, it is becoming clear to me that there is more to your rejection of Christianity than just you taking issue with a few passages in the Bible that talk about God's wrath and judgment.

To illustrate this point, I can ask you a question. Suppose that none of the passages in the bible which you find morally appalling even existed, i.e. that God never is recorded has having killed anyone in a flood or ordered anyone to kill the Amalekites and others. Suppose the doctrine of hell is never mentioned in the Bible either.

Would you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins?

The reason I am asking this is I am trying to find out the real reason behind your rejection of Jesus Christ.

I know that this question is directed at @David Colin Gould, but I'm going to chime in anyway. In my experience, you aren't very "willing to listen" to the answer, but here it is anyway: no, if those passages were removed, I would not "repent and believe" in Christianity because I am not convinced of the truth of its doctrines.