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Bruce Jenner

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Cute Tink

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If I may ask, are you sexually attracted to males or females?

Yes.

It really doesn't matter to me what parts my partner has. It only really matters what kind of person that they are and that I find them attractive. I have dated both men and women.

Do you find your desire to be a male to be sexually driven, or is something else driving that?

I was born male. My desire to be male was driven by wanting to be accepted by society and generally not be different. The problem was that it was never right for me. I have always been disgusted by my body and never really "felt" right in it. I was driven to transition to get rid of that wrongness that has always been a part of me. Since I started, I find myself much happier as a person finally being who I really am and am much more comfortable in my skin.

Sex doesn't really matter to me. I don't have any need to have sex at all.
 
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I didn't have a word to describe what I was going through, but I did feel that disgust for a long time and I have had a solid preference for feminine "things" for as far back as I can remember (though not to exclusion of all things labeled as male).
 
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98cwitr

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I didn't have a word to describe what I was going through, but I did feel that disgust for a long time and I have had a solid preference for feminine "things" for as far back as I can remember (though not to exclusion of all things labeled as male).

So not to get too far off topic, do you think Bruce has always had these feelings, and tried for most of his life to suppress them, and then finally succumbed to his own desires this late in his life?
 
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Albion

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I was hoping your point was more reasonable. This idea that we need counseling to beat us over the head with the idea that our genitals (the only common indicator you have to go on) define who we are is not going to fly.
Well, if that had been my point, I'd understand your exasperation.
 
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Cute Tink

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So not to get too far off topic, do you think Bruce has always had these feelings, and tried for most of his life to suppress them, and then finally succumbed to his own desires this late in his life?

From what I've heard of her story, she has. When she was a kid, she would dress female when she was home alone. She apparently started transition in the 80s and stopped to pursue a relationship, I believe with Kris.

What I've heard from other trans people, many of us put off transition hoping that these "feelings" go away. For a while they might, but they tend to come back stronger than ever.
 
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High Fidelity

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you people who are judging of transexuals,
is it easier to hate than to love?
Is it easier throw to stone than to offer a hand?

Calling sin sin is not throwing a stone. It IS offering a hand.

People are wrongly under the assumption that we are to accept sinful lifestyles and be inclusive and respectful of things that don't deserve inclusion or respect when held to Biblical standard or teaching.

Standing idly by whilst someone lives a life of sin so as not to hurt their feelings is not love. Consequences far worse than hurt feelings await those living in unrepentant sin.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I feel we need some perspective here.
 
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Maren

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Oh don't give me that solipsistic crap. Evoking the specter of "science!" is nothing more than a narcissistic ploy, an attempt to avoid an argument by assuming an unwarranted position of superiority and suppressing dissent based on the default assumption your position is unassailable. Next you will toss out the genderphobe trope. However science is only important to the American left when it can be evoked to support the advancement of an agenda. The AGW debate is the perfect example. Yet when it comes to other political issues, such as the sacrament of abortion, the left tosses the associated science right out the window.

Your "the science is settled" argument isn't any more valid as when that phrase is applied to the AGW issue, yet any evocation here of psychiatrist or psychologist who oppose your preset view will be treated the same as when someone correctly points out the "95 percent of climate scientist agree" claim is a lie. For example, in support for the veracity of the transgender/mental illness position read Dr. Paul R. McHugh.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "the science is settled." In terms of transsexualism having a physical cause, that is pretty quickly becoming settled. Though it isn't settled because we don't fully understand the causes, and most would prefer that there was a better treatment than some extremely serious surgery.

The facts are we have a good idea of why people are born transsexual -- and to a lesser extent transgender. Not only that, we have found that we can reproduce it in various animal species and could likely reproduce it in humans -- though that won't be tried for ethical reasons. It is worth pointing out that we have found that children of mothers who took hormones during pregnancy (which was frequently done in the 50s for problem pregnancies) are much more likely than average to have gender dysphoria.

We've also now seen studies that verify that transsexual brains have the appearance and structure of a brain of the gender the person claims to be, not the gender between their legs, and it has been found this brain structure exists prior to a person taking hormones.

But there is work to be done, in particular, what are the causes of transsexualism; and more broadly, transgendered feelings. We seem to have discovered with some people it is issues in the womb, such as the mothers who took hormones. Some believe the mother being under great stress at the wrong time, which causes an abnormal amount of hormones to be produced, could also be a factor. There is even some early research that shows genetics may be a part -- that many behaviors that appear to be gender specific may actually be caused by genetics. That many transsexuals may have the minor genetic markers making the one gender, but the "sex chromosomes" that make them the other. This could particularly be true in people with XXY and XXXY chromosome "pairs," who are typically at a minimum transgendered and frequently transsexual.

Last, Dr. McHugh is hardly a neutral source. While he does not say it in his writings, he puts his Catholic beliefs above his science, not to mention he appears to have not studied the science since about 1980. If you read his writings, his claims are out of date and discredited by the scientific work that has been done in the last two decades.

You don't want to understand where I am coming from. For the record, however, I realize in the fight for the survival of American culture lines must be drawn somewhere, and when advancing the destruction of that culture the liberal/progressive left will never cease and never be satisfied. This year it is trangendered rights. Twenty years from now the same people will be arguing for the rights of pedophiles. The groundwork is already being laid:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/local/la-me-pedophiles-20130115

And I see little in that article that supports your slippery slope. In fact, the only real person complaining, if you will, is the mother towards the end who complains about how her poor son will never have anyone to love. The rest of the article deals with it as a matter of understanding the cause of pedophilia, so that we can help people better control it. For example, the person the article mentions with urges which he has never acted on being sent to a support group so that he can continue to resist his urges.

The fact remains, even with gay marriage becoming legal in various countries, age of consent keeps rising in the Western world, including the US.

Those who look at themselves and believe they were meant to be the sex opposite of what they were born are no different than those who look at themselves and believe they were meant to be blind, or shouldn't have a right arm, or are anorexic but believe themselves obese, or believe they are hideously ugly regardless of the truth. They are in need of mental help, not an airbrushed and doctored image on the cover of Vanity Fair or an enabling doctor willing to assist pouring drano into a woman's eyes in order to help achieve her lifelong goal of being blind.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...s-fulfil-lifelong-wish-says-happier-ever.html

But as has been pointed out, there is no better treatment for transsexuals. If you wish to really study the science behind it and find a better treatment, sincere work in this area will be appreciated -- I think most everyone agrees there needs to be better treatments. Unfortunately, particularly now that transsexuals are found to have brains of the sex they claim to be, therapy alone will not help.

Mental illness such as this should be addressed, not glorified. Jenner was born male and still is. Regardless of how much surgery he may subject himself to he will die with the same genetic construct he was born with.

And I understand you believe this but, then again, many people deny the facts that science has discovered and believe the Earth is flat. Again, there is a decent amount of science here, with more being discovered every year.

Another appeal to authority. If you had the slightest interest in researching the mental health aspects of transgenderism, you wouldn't need me to post anything.



beautiful-women-75520.jpg


In case you need a primer. No guy who wants to be a woman will ever look like this.



Men can be effeminate. That doesn't make them women.

And this is also untrue, transsexuals can look like that. For example:
kim-petras-2.jpg
tula-cassey.jpg


These are just two examples of transsexuals that look as good as Elisha Cuthbert. The second one was a famous model, a "Bond girl", and appeared in Playboy; jobs that are only given to women who "look like this."
 
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Maren

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Calling sin sin is not throwing a stone. It IS offering a hand.

People are wrongly under the assumption that we are to accept sinful lifestyles and be inclusive and respectful of things that don't deserve inclusion or respect when held to Biblical standard or teaching.

Standing idly by whilst someone lives a life of sin so as not to hurt their feelings is not love. Consequences far worse than hurt feelings await those living in unrepentant sin.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I feel we need some perspective here.

So driving a person with sexual dysphoria to suicide is "helping them?" As keep being pointed out in this thread, therapy does not work for transsexuals (though it can help transgendered individuals).
 
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Bethany35

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

and how long have they been straightening gay guys? Has it worked?

Yes it's hate, it's throwing stones and giving swastikas, it is not tough love it is refusing to accept others. It is posting judgement on others like the Nazis did, and like Isis and Taliban have done. You can admit to the problem or you can hide behind it.
 
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High Fidelity

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and how long have they been straightening gay guys? Has it worked?

Yes it's hate, it's throwing stones and giving swastikas, it is not tough love it is refusing to accept others. It is posting judgement on others like the Nazis did, and like Isis and Taliban have done. You can admit to the problem or you can hide behind it.

How long have we been trying to (unsuccessfully) find a cure for [Insert disease name here]? Should we just accept that it doesn't exist and stop?

It is not throwing stones. We love the sinner, hate the sin. That's how it is.

Calling sin a sin is nothing other than Christian. It's not extreme. It's not prejudice. It's not hateful. It's sin and sin is to be rebuked.

Would you tell a murderer that murder is sin? A drunkard that drunkenness is sin? A liar that lying is sin?

Sin is sin. Calling it what it is isn't hateful; it's Biblical.
 
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Bethany35

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you are not hating the sin, you are casting the hate on the person in the way you do this.you are leaving me and others feeling judged and giving us crosses to wear, for we are the oppressed ones not the few Church groups who lash out at us.

Mean while what is bigger problems... homelessness, starving orphans, war, famine and cancer still happen. What do you do about them?
 
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High Fidelity

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you are not hating the sin, you are casting the hate on the person in the way you do this.you are leaving me and others feeling judged and giving us crosses to wear, for we are the oppressed ones not the few Church groups who lash out at us.

Mean while what is bigger problems... homelessness, starving orphans, war, famine and cancer still happen. What do you do about them?

I am hating the sin. I don't hate man. It is not judgemental to call a sin a sin. The Bible is the final authority in our lives; that's where the conviction of my posts originates. I am merely repeating Biblical standard that's there for anyone to read.

As for the other things, yes, they're bad, but that feels like an appeal to emotion when emotion has nothing to do with the black and white nature of sin. "The Bible says it, that settles it" is a sentiment I used to scoff at, but in reality, it's about as accurate as it gets for a Christian.

No one said it'd be easy. No one is saying we can or will be entirely sinless, but to perpetuate unrepentant sin is not the answer; nor is shifting attention on to 'bigger things' that neither affect or excuse any one person's sin.
 
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Cearbhall

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Yeah, and the biology supports my position.
You do realize that my asking you to explain your viewpoint scientifically and back it up with medical journal articles was not a personal attack, right? That's just standard. I would be truly interested to hear your answers to the questions that I posed to you in post #100 and see what research you've read that has led you to your conclusions, which is why I asked the questions in the first place. I'm not trying to set up any trick here. There's always room for disagreement, and obviously I haven't looked at every recent study regarding transgenderism.
Standard avoidance tactic. I made a number of relevant arguments. You either can't effectively address them or simply don't want to out of fear of exposing your hidden agenda.
I don't see how they're relevant, but alright. I'll take another look and respond to them. I would advise that you stick to addressing the merit of my arguments rather than constructing red herrings, in kind. ;)
 
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David4223

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MOD HAT ON

Okay, everyone -- listen up!

I just completed a long clean up of this thread.

Here is what's not OK.
1.) Calling Catholics not true Christians
2.) Flaming other members
3.) Attacking another member's character

Here is what we should be doing:
1.) Showing respect and courtesy to everyone (even if we don't agree with their viewpoint)
2.) Treating others as you would want yourself to be treated.

Continued violations will result in further staff actions.

Thank you.


MOD HAT OFF
 
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