Bruce Jenner

[Albion]

I never claimed that boob implants and high heels make a woman Albion.

I didn't say you did. But we're discussing the case of Bruce Jenner. That's what caused me to comment about counseling.

Jenner is not avoiding surgery because of a desire to go back.

According to him, he is.

So, I'll go with that.

 

[Cute Tink]

For example, in support for the veracity of the transgender/mental illness position read Dr. Paul R. McHugh.

I have read what he thinks. He thinks in terms of stereotypes, but agrees that children have an innate gender that cannot be modified by raising them opposite of what they really are (in simpler terms, you cannot raise someone to be female if they are male, regardless of what their genitals look like).

Mental illness such as this should be addressed, not glorified.

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness.

Another appeal to authority.

Like citing to Dr. McHugh?

In case you need a primer. No guy who wants to be a woman will ever look like this.

Nor will most biological females.

 

[Cute Tink]

I didn't say you did. But we're discussing the case of Bruce Jenner. That's what caused me to comment about counseling.

Jenner has had counseling. It hasn't worked. What else do you suggest?

According to him, he is.

So, I'll go with that.

Got a link that says she's not having surgery so she can go back? I'll wait for that.

 

[Albion]

Jenner has had counseling. It hasn't worked. What else do you suggest?

I was inquiring about the accuracy of the claim that counseling cannot work when the issue is the subject imagining that he's changed his sex when he's only adopted some of the characteristics and trappings of a woman.

 

[Cute Tink]

I was inquiring about the accuracy of the claim that counseling cannot work when the issue is the subject imagining that he's changed his sex when he's only adopted some of the characteristics and trappings of a woman.

Nobody is claiming that the operation makes you a fully functional reproductive female, if that's the issue you have.

 

[Albion]

Nobody is claiming that the operation makes you a fully functional reproductive female, if that's the issue you have.

No, that's not it. And I don't know why it's proving so hard for you to understand the point.

 

[Cute Tink]

No, that's not it. And I don't know why it's proving so hard for you to understand the point.

I was hoping your point was more reasonable. This idea that we need counseling to beat us over the head with the idea that our genitals (the only common indicator you have to go on) define who we are is not going to fly.

I guess if you want us to receive therapy to tell us that our transition was just a fantasy, you are first going to have to establish that your belief is something that deserves to be given the support of the psychiatric community.

 

[Bethany35]

a person can be transexual without boob transplants / etc. as I have noticed, have quite a few trans buddies.

 

[Cearbhall]

Oh don't give me that solipsistic crap. Evoking the specter of "science!" is nothing more than a narcissistic ploy

Erm, no. Biology tends to be a scientific matter. I don't see how we can escape that. If you don't have a relevant argument, then I don't see how I can address your viewpoint, much less take it into consideration.

You don't want to understand where I am coming from.

Yes, I do. What a silly and needlessly antagonistic thing to say. And here I thought we could have a productive discussion.

 

[YSN-1990]

Nonsense. Homosexuality and transgenderism are two utterly separate issues.

How so? What heterosexual man will go to the point of having an life changing operation to make himself look like a woman?

 

[Cute Tink]

Yeah, and the biology supports my position.

People are not neatly placed into XY male or XX female, according to biology.

 

[Armoured]

How so? What heterosexual man will go to the point of having an life changing operation to make himself look like a woman?

One with gender dysphoria.

edit: what makes you think the average homosexual man would go through an operation to make himself look like a woman?

 

[Cute Tink]

How so? What heterosexual man will go to the point of having an life changing operation to make himself look like a woman?

Sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identity. There are gay, straight, bisexual, etc. trans people just like with non-trans people. Transition has absolutely nothing to do with having sex.

 

[YSN-1990]

Sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identity. There are gay, straight, bisexual, etc. trans people just like with non-trans people. Transition has absolutely nothing to do with having sex.

So a man becoming a 'woman' ends up having only relationships with women is not gay? There is no male genitalia involved right? If i look at your comments, you make it seem genitalia is the only thing seperating gender.

 

[Bethany35]

Sexual orientation is completely separate from gender identity. There are gay, straight, bisexual, etc. trans people just like with non-trans people. Transition has absolutely nothing to do with having sex.

Some heterosexual males also feel they may have been in the wrong body and want to put things right.

 

[Cute Tink]

So a man becoming a 'woman' ends up having only relationships with women is not gay? There is no male genitalia involved right? If i look at your comments, you make it seem genitalia is the only thing seperating gender.

I didn't say that at all. What I said was quoted in your post: "There are gay, straight, bisexual, etc. trans people". I'm not sure how that translated into "trans people aren't gay" for you.

Genitalia aren't the defining characteristic of what gender a person is, but society defines people by them by default.

 

[Cute Tink]

Some heterosexual males also feel they may have been in the wrong body and want to put things right.

That is true. A person of any sexual orientation can be suffering from Gender Dysphoria.

 

[Armoured]

So a man becoming a 'woman' ends up having only relationships with women is not gay? There is no male genitalia involved right? If i look at your comments, you make it seem genitalia is the only thing seperating gender.

may shock you to learn there are heterosexually married couples who stay together after one of them has transitioned. There are other transgender people who've never had sexual relationships either before or after transitioning. It's all very complicated and nuanced. Much more so than "gays dressing up".

 

[98cwitr]

People are not neatly placed into XY male or XX female, according to biology.

Aside from Klinefelter syndrome or XYY syndrome (and some cases where there is a missing chromosome (such as having only one X instead of 2), most humans are placed into XY or XX pairs. I'm not sure I understand your statement, but it doesn't seem to be true for the mast majority of humans. Please elaborate. With any syndrome or disorder, the same statement is that if you have a Y chromosome at all, you're male.

Mr. Jenner, no matter how much he might want to be a woman, will never be, because of his Y chromosome. Check mate /thread

 

[Cute Tink]

Aside from Klinefelter syndrome or XYY syndrome (and some cases where there is a missing chromosome (such as having only one X instead of 2), most humans are placed into XY or XX pairs. I'm not sure I understand your statement, but it doesn't seem to be true for the mast majority of humans. Please elaborate. With any syndrome or disorder, the same statement is that if you have a Y chromosome at all, you're male.

The point wasn't about what applies to the majority of people, but what gets ignored by people who seem to believe there is only XX or XY. The point is that nature creates variety regardless of the boxes we want to fit all people neatly into.

CAIS people develop female regardless of the presence of a Y chromosome and many times don't have a penis to declare them male.