Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[justinangel]

Quite true. Shall we then conclude that Jesus was born into this world with His resurrected body and that He did not actually have a physical body at all like ours?

Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”
Matthew 14, 25-27

While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
Luke 24, 36-40

Jesus hadn't yet resurrected when his apostles saw him walking on the lake and thought they were seeing a phantom. How many other people with physical bodies like ours do you know who are able to walk on water?

PAX

 

[justinangel]

Lots of scripture about not remaining a virgin...how about some that says she did?

How about scrolling back?

PAX

 

[justinangel]

Indeed, it makes much more sense to me to trust God than to trust anyone else.

Does that include you yourself when you open your Bible?

PAX

 

[Standing Up]

And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”
Luke 2, 22-24

This verse does not state that Jesus physically opened his mother's womb when he was born.

PAX

Of course it does. First born opens the womb.

Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

The alternative to the truth is a trap called Docetism.

 

[patricius79]

We cannot worship God without honoring the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God.

We cannot have God as our Father without having the Blessed Virgin as our Mother.

Every grace we are given comes from God through the hands of the Immaculate Virgin.

Praise be to Jesus Christ!

 

[bbbbbbb]

We cannot worship God without honoring the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God.

We cannot have God as our Father without having the Blessed Virgin as our Mother.

Every grace we are given comes from God through the hands of the Immaculate Virgin.

Praise be to Jesus Christ!

Would you kindly reply to my question in Post #1379?

 

[sahjimira]

StillUOTE="justinangel, post: 68695184, member: 278345"]How about scrolling back?

PAX
[/QUOTE]
Still dont see any scripture supporting ur view

 

[sahjimira]

MaybeOTE="Wgw, post: 68680890, member: 377082"]Here you quote John Wesley, who did believe that St. Mary remained a virgin.[/QUOTE]
Maybe he did but I don't

 

[justinangel]

Of course it does. First born opens the womb.

Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

The alternative to the truth is a trap called Docetism.

The expression "to open the womb" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "the firstborn of one's mother" or "the firstborn of the womb". It is a figure of speech, not a literal description of the birth process notwithstanding any assumption of a normal birth. My point is that Luke is not telling us how Jesus was naturally born, but rather that he was born under the law. Since Jesus was a divine person, however, he was not subject to it. He was not required to be redeemed as all the other firstborn Jewish offspring were by Mosaic Law. He was an exception to the rule. So you're wrong if you think Luke provides a proof-text for the physical manner by which Jesus was born. He simply cites how the law normally applies to all firstborn offspring. Jesus just happened to be Mary's offspring: the fruit of her womb. I'm sure Luke was aware of our Lord's miraculous birth as much as he was aware of his miraculous conception (exemption from the need to be redeemed), which doesn't make him a Docetist.

PAX

 

[patricius79]

The expression "to open the womb" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "the firstborn of one's mother" or "the firstborn of the womb". It is a figure of speech, not a literal description of the birth process notwithstanding any assumption of a normal birth. My point is that Luke is not telling us how Jesus was naturally born, but rather that he was born under the law. Since Jesus was a divine person, however, he was not subject to it. He was not required to be redeemed as all the other firstborn Jewish offspring were by Mosaic Law. He was an exception to the rule. So you're wrong if you think Luke provides a proof-text for the physical manner by which Jesus was born. He simply cites how the law normally applies to all firstborn offspring. Jesus just happened to be Mary's offspring: the fruit of her womb. I'm sure Luke was aware of our Lord's miraculous birth as much as he was aware of his miraculous conception (exemption from the need to be redeemed), which doesn't make him a Docetist.

That makes sense.

From the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

O Lady, Our Lord has become our brother and our Savior.

Like the flame in the burning bush, and the dew in the fleece: the Word of
God descends into thee forever.

The Holy Spirit hath made thee fruitful: the power of the Most High hath
overshadowed thee.

Blessed be thy most pure conception: blessed be thy virginal bringing
forth.

Blessed be the purity of thy body: blessed be the sweetness of the mercy of
thy heart.

Glory be to the Father, etc.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/SOURCES/PSALTER.TXT

 

[Standing Up]

The expression "to open the womb" is a Hebrew idiom meaning "the firstborn of one's mother" or "the firstborn of the womb". It is a figure of speech, not a literal description of the birth process notwithstanding any assumption of a normal birth. My point is that Luke is not telling us how Jesus was naturally born, but rather that he was born under the law. Since Jesus was a divine person, however, he was not subject to it. He was not required to be redeemed as all the other firstborn Jewish offspring were by Mosaic Law. He was an exception to the rule. So you're wrong if you think Luke provides a proof-text for the physical manner by which Jesus was born. He simply cites how the law normally applies to all firstborn offspring. Jesus just happened to be Mary's offspring: the fruit of her womb. I'm sure Luke was aware of our Lord's miraculous birth as much as he was aware of his miraculous conception (exemption from the need to be redeemed), which doesn't make him a Docetist.

PAX

Correct, open the womb is an expression to mean first born. The womb once opened at the first birth isn't closed therefore. Only traditions of men tell us to the contrary.

 

[Rick Otto]

We cannot worship God without honoring the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God.

We cannot have God as our Father without having the Blessed Virgin as our Mother.

Every grace we are given comes from God through the hands of the Immaculate Virgin.

Praise be to Jesus Christ!

Of course we can. I don't begrudge her whatever HE wants to share with her, but I worship Him alone. If you think that honors her, you are welcome to your opinion. Her having been His mom for awhile does not maker her ours. That is wishfull thinking, in my opinion, and that stuff about her administrating Grace needs substantiation, 'cause it just sounds like religion.

 

[patricius79]

I wish people would believe the truth about the Blessed Virgin, and completely consecrate themselves to Christ through Her, after the teachings of St. Louis DeMontfort.

The book "True Devotion to Mary" is a pillar in my life. It is so consoling and moving. I was a literature major in college, but I feel that I would trade every classic I read from in college for this masterpiece of devotion to the Immaculate Virgin, the Mother of God.

My we all find the freedom of pure love of God in the Heart of the Blessed Virgin:

215. The Mother of fair love will rid your heart of all scruples and inordinate servile fear. She will open and enlarge it to obey the commandments of her Son with alacrity and with the holy freedom of the children of God. She will fill your heart with pure love of which she is the treasury. You will then cease to act as you did before, out of fear of the God who is love, but rather out of pure love. You will look upon him as a loving Father and endeavour to please him at all times. You will speak trustfully to him as a child does to its father. If you should have the misfortune to offend him you will abase yourself before him and humbly beg his pardon. You will offer your hand to him with simplicity and lovingly rise from your sin. Then, peaceful and relaxed and buoyed up with hope you will continue on your way to him.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Ch. 4

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wish people would believe the truth about the Blessed Virgin, and completely consecrate themselves to Christ through Her, after the teachings of St. Louis DeMontfort.

The book "True Devotion to Mary" is a pillar in my life. It is so consoling and moving. I was a literature major in college, but I feel that I would trade every classic I read from in college for this masterpiece of devotion to the Immaculate Virgin, the Mother of God.

My we all find the freedom of pure love of God in the Heart of the Blessed Virgin:

215. The Mother of fair love will rid your heart of all scruples and inordinate servile fear. She will open and enlarge it to obey the commandments of her Son with alacrity and with the holy freedom of the children of God. She will fill your heart with pure love of which she is the treasury. You will then cease to act as you did before, out of fear of the God who is love, but rather out of pure love. You will look upon him as a loving Father and endeavour to please him at all times. You will speak trustfully to him as a child does to its father. If you should have the misfortune to offend him you will abase yourself before him and humbly beg his pardon. You will offer your hand to him with simplicity and lovingly rise from your sin. Then, peaceful and relaxed and buoyed up with hope you will continue on your way to him.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Ch. 4

Our friends from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints hold the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants in similar esteem to "True Devotion to Mary" . How do I determine which of these four books is best?

 

[justinangel]

Correct, open the womb is an expression to mean first born. The womb once opened at the first birth isn't closed therefore. Only traditions of men tell us to the contrary.

That is exactly what your modern tradition outside the Church is - man made; just as all Protestant denominations are man made.

No it isn't closed necessarily. A second or third offspring may issue forth from a mother's womb. Obviously all firstborn Jewish children are born normally and have to be sanctified and redeemed. But with Jesus we have an exception. We believe that he was in no need to be sanctified and redeemed, and so he was conceived and born miraculously. The law only applies to all firstborn offspring who were conceived and born naturally by an "unclean" process through the seed of man. Jesus was not by nature subject to the law but chose to be born under it in order to free us from it. (Gal. 4:4).

When the time came for them [Jesus and Mary] to be purified as laid down by the Law of Moses, they [Mary and Joseph] took him (Jesus) up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord.
Luke 2, 22

In Judaism, being pure is the result of avoiding contact and union with the unclean, and being impure is the result of coming into contact and union with the unclean. So if Jesus was born normally as you imagine he was, then he was actually in need of being purified and sanctified along with his mother. And if that's the case, then Jesus was by nature subject to the law as much as all firstborn males are subject to being circumcised and thereby sanctified (made clean). You are ignoring the religious significance of this rite of purification in your biased reading of the text. And, as a result, you dishonour Mary's divine Son as well as her whom God had made and kept pure in honour of His Son.

In any event, what we have in Luke is only a citation of the Law from the Second Book of Moses: “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Sanctify unto me every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel … Thou shalt set apart all that openeth the womb for the Lord.” (Exodus 13:1,12) However, Christ had in his divine person no need of being sanctified through the rituals of the old Law; therefore it is clear that he did not open his mother's womb and defile himself in the process.

PAX

 

[Standing Up]

That is exactly what your modern tradition outside the Church is - man made; just as all Protestant denominations are man made.

No it isn't closed necessarily. A second or third offspring may issue forth from a mother's womb. Obviously all firstborn Jewish children are born normally and have to be sanctified and redeemed. But with Jesus we have an exception. We believe that he was in no need to be sanctified and redeemed, and so he was conceived and born miraculously. The law only applies to all firstborn offspring who were conceived and born naturally by an "unclean" process through the seed of man. Jesus was not by nature subject to the law but chose to be born under it in order to free us from it. (Gal. 4:4).

When the time came for them [Jesus and Mary] to be purified as laid down by the Law of Moses, they [Mary and Joseph] took him (Jesus) up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord.
Luke 2, 22

In Judaism, being pure is the result of avoiding contact and union with the unclean, and being impure is the result of coming into contact and union with the unclean. So if Jesus was born normally as you imagine he was, then he was actually in need of being purified and sanctified along with his mother. And if that's the case, then Jesus was by nature subject to the law as much as all firstborn males are subject to being circumcised and thereby sanctified (made clean). You are ignoring the religious significance of this rite of purification in your biased reading of the text. And, as a result, you dishonour Mary's divine Son as well as her whom God had made and kept pure in honour of His Son.

In any event, what we have in Luke is only a citation of the Law from the Second Book of Moses: “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Sanctify unto me every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel … Thou shalt set apart all that openeth the womb for the Lord.” (Exodus 13:1,12) However, Christ had in his divine person no need of being sanctified through the rituals of the old Law; therefore it is clear that he did not open his mother's womb and defile himself in the process.

PAX

As you say, it was Mary in need of "cleaning". This is precisely because of His normal birth, the firstborn opening the womb.

Christ came subject to the Law, to fulfill, btw.

 

[patricius79]

In Judaism, being pure is the result of avoiding contact and union with the unclean, and being impure is the result of coming into contact and union with the unclean. So if Jesus was born normally as you imagine he was, then he was actually in need of being purified and sanctified along with his mother. And if that's the case, then Jesus was by nature subject to the law as much as all firstborn males are subject to being circumcised and thereby sanctified (made clean). You are ignoring the religious significance of this rite of purification in your biased reading of the text. And, as a result, you dishonour Mary's divine Son as well as her whom God had made and kept pure in honour of His Son.
PAX

I think that is the crucial issue. We cannot separate the honor of the Son from that of His Mother. Jesus would not want us to try. He honors his Virgin Mother because he loves her. When we honor Mary, we worship Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

The identity confusion is mind boggling.

 

[patricius79]

I pray for the time when all the smoke of doubt about the Blessed Virgin is removed, and we can see her as she is, and belong completely to her.

179. Blessed is the man who has given everything to Mary, who at all times and in all things trusts in her, and loses himself in her. He belongs to Mary and Mary belongs to him. With David he can boldly say, "She was created for me", or with the beloved disciple, "I have taken her for my own", or with our Lord himself, "All that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

 

[bbbbbbb]

I pray for the time when all the smoke of doubt about the Blessed Virgin is removed, and we can see her as she is, and belong completely to her.

179. Blessed is the man who has given everything to Mary, who at all times and in all things trusts in her, and loses himself in her. He belongs to Mary and Mary belongs to him. With David he can boldly say, "She was created for me", or with the beloved disciple, "I have taken her for my own", or with our Lord himself, "All that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

To quote Rick Otto, "The identity confusion is mind boggling.".