Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[n2thelight]

The problem i see with your quotes is that you are in all probability trying to interpret things off your own back. Lots of people take quotes from the bible and make them suit their needs / views.

For Catholics we tend to follow what the Church teaches. Thus, taught via the Holy Spirit, via Tradition.

Okay,so help me out...What are the traditions that the Holy Spirit gave to the Catholic Church?

 

[Goatee]

Okay,so help me out...What are the traditions that the Holy Spirit gave to the Catholic Church?

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm

 

[Standing Up]

The feast of the Resurrection is not Passover, which is why quartodecimianism was rejected. It should be obvious that the Church of Rome, which was founded by St. Peter after he founded the Church of Antioch (of which I am a member) followed the genuine apostolic tradition of celebrating Easter on the Sunday that would have followed the Jewish Passover in the year Christ was crucified and resurrected.

Again, you have absolutely zero evidence for this, even in Tradition it does not exist anywhere that Peter (or any apostle) observed Easter on a Sunday after the full moon after the equinox. You've made it up to suit your denomination's claim so-called of being apostolic.

 

[Standing Up]

The Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Church is not the tradition of men but rather a divine Tradition, which Paul expressly commands us to follow in 2 Thess. 2:15.

Tell us three extant oral traditions in Paul's time you are commanded to follow.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Getting off topic. The count of 50 was from the weekly Sabbath from the first fruit (the day after the first day of unleavened bread). Seven weeks of Sabbaths and then the day after (always Sunday). See Lev. 23:11-15.

You're the one who brought it up...
Sunday of Resurrection to Sunday of Pentecost is 50 days. Sunday of Resurrection to Saturday before Pentecost would be 49...

 

[Root of Jesse]

So buying one's way out of hell,would this be considered a tradition?

There is no such thing...once you're in hell, you're in hell. Period.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It was

Never. (Check the thread, we've been over this already).

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, it was not. You are thinking of the practice of indulgences, chantries, and so on, which according to the doctrine of purgatory (which is not an Orthodox theological concept) had the effect of remiting temporal punishment. For a time under Leo X indulgences were sold but this has been discontinued; the pirchased induogences were bought on behalf of a third party. This was an abhorrent practice but it is now extinct. I am not a fan of purgatory and indulgence as theological concepts and my own denomination repudiates them, but in no sense could one buy oneself passage out of Hell as the concept of Purgatory is entirely distinct from Hell. Nor could one by oneself an indulgence at all.

Even if Leo X sold indulgences, he did not change the doctrine one whit. Therefore, the Church NEVER taught that indulgences could be sold or bought.
Indulgences are earned through acts of piety for your own remission of the punishment of sin. You can pray, fast, and give alms (which is what people interpret as buying indulgences). You have to already have gone to Reconciliation, and been sorry, done penance, then you can do acts of piety, then you obtain an indulgence.

 

[Standing Up]

You're the one who brought it up...
Sunday of Resurrection to Sunday of Pentecost is 50 days. Sunday of Resurrection to Saturday before Pentecost would be 49...

Doesn't matter; besides your Easter to Pentecost (giving of Spirit) will never be 50. The count is 7 weeks (Sunday to Sabbath) of Sabbaths (49 days) plus/to the day after the Sabbath (Sunday). You're following the myth that says the sheaf was always offered on a Sunday (after the Sabbath). See Lev. 23:11-15, the Septuagint will clarify it for you. There's the weekly Sabbath and first day of unleavened bread Sabbath.

 

[Standing Up]

There is no such thing...once you're in hell, you're in hell. Period.

So the gates of hell prevail in your/RC theology.

 

[thecolorsblend]

So the gates of hell prevail in your/RC theology.

Now you're just reaching.

 

[BobRyan]

Bearing in mind that I am not Roman Cathokic I can assure you this is not a facet of their theology.

In the Bible there is heaven and there is hell.

In the RCC there is something else - extreme torment - but not quite hell. It is "purgatory" -- and the idea is that almost everyone but the extremely wicked - go to purgatory -- tortured for all their sins on earth - and then to heaven.

You can buy (Tetzel) or earn indulgences to get your loved ones out of purgatory and of course anyone who was a loving family member would do everything possible to ensure that they get out fast.

 

[BobRyan]

So the gates of hell prevail in your/RC theology.

Some view it as a immortal sin - guarantee of eternal sinning.

 

[BobRyan]

Wgw said: ↑
St. Jerome was obviously not a mainline Protestant but was rather a fourth century hermit, translator and opponent of Origenism; there was some what of a bitter row between Orogen and the unfortunately named Lucifer of Cagliari, the bishop of Sardinia.

You are apparently not up on the incidents of Christian being burned alive during the dark ages -... more than "one Jerome" in Christian history.

• Jerome of Prague, Hus's friend and devoted follower shared his fate and on 30 May 1416 was also burned at Konstanz

The 15th century is generally regarded as the early Renaissance (before anyone dares to claim the Renaissance began with the Reformation, it should be noted that the Roman renaissance is considered to have ended when Rome was sacked by the forces of Charles V in 1527).

The time during which they were burning Christians alive - is considered by many to be the dark ages.

As you point out - some call it "the Renaisssance"

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 7:8
"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."

Mark 7:9
"And He said unto them. "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Question

If tradition lines up with the Word,why do we need them?

To line up with scripture - all Tradition has to do is -- not contradict it.

Sadly for much of the tradition floating around today - that standard is hard to meet.

 

[BobRyan]

Except once again, Mark 7:13 refers to the person of Christ and your eisegesis is refuted by 2 Thess 2:15.

Unfortunately putting text in a bold red underlined font does not make it accurate. Otherwise I might install myself in that manner as the despotic ruler of the Maldives.

Sadly for that speculation - the text is verbatim, accurate, and irrefutable in demonstrating the way that sola scriptura testing of tradition was used by Christ to hammer the traditions of the Jews.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Doesn't matter; besides your Easter to Pentecost (giving of Spirit) will never be 50. The count is 7 weeks (Sunday to Sabbath) of Sabbaths (49 days) plus/to the day after the Sabbath (Sunday). You're following the myth that says the sheaf was always offered on a Sunday (after the Sabbath). See Lev. 23:11-15, the Septuagint will clarify it for you. There's the weekly Sabbath and first day of unleavened bread Sabbath.

I follow no myth. Count 7 to 17 you count 11 numbers. Count Sunday through 7 Sundays from now, you get 50 days.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So the gates of hell prevail in your/RC theology.

A man is allowed free will to fail. That's not what the gates of hell saying means. That's about the Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

In the Bible there is heaven and there is hell.

In the RCC there is something else - extreme torment - but not quite hell. It is "purgatory" -- and the idea is that almost everyone but the extremely wicked - go to purgatory -- tortured for all their sins on earth - and then to heaven.

You can buy (Tetzel) or earn indulgences to get your loved ones out of purgatory and of course anyone who was a loving family member would do everything possible to ensure that they get out fast.

We don't know what happens in Purgatory. But we do know that, if you're in Purgatory, you are going to heaven. You can't buy indulgences.

 

[Wgw]

Even if Leo X sold indulgences, he did not change the doctrine one whit. Therefore, the Church NEVER taught that indulgences could be sold or bought.
Indulgences are earned through acts of piety for your own remission of the punishment of sin. You can pray, fast, and give alms (which is what people interpret as buying indulgences). You have to already have gone to Reconciliation, and been sorry, done penance, then you can do acts of piety, then you obtain an indulgence.

Indeed, there is a table in my 1962 Tridentine missal outlining the scheme of indulgences. I believe I have a Douay-Rheims bible with the same features.