The origins of atheism

[Cearbhall]

You have come onto a Christian forum and spouted all sorts of rubbish about atheism and evolution which none of us believe except atheists and you think we are worried if you agree with us or not?

I'm sorry to say you've been misinformed and have therefore inaccurately imagined some sort of antagonism on my part. Many, many Christians fully support theistic evolution. It is not contradictory to your religion, though it may very well be contradictory to your particular denomination or personal faith. My knowledge of evolution actually comes from my Catholic schooling, where we were taught that this is what happened. I have the same attitude towards the theory as I did when I was Christian.

 

[Davian]

That may be the case for many, but there are also many of whom that is not the case. That would be like saying the humans are born stupid, and then they are taught knowledge. People are taught and indoctrinated into all kinds of things. But you cannot remove truth from the possibilities of available knowledge...in fact, truth is the only constant in any possible scenario. But that only speaks to those who learn from others.

There are numerous eyewitnesses (of which I am one), who did not learn what they know of God from others...but from God himself.

Do you have the names and addresses of those first-hand witnesses?

And the likelihood that those who have not learned directly for God would believe their witness...doesn't change anything. But it is quite telling of human nature.

What does it tell you? That you will insult someone again?

 

[As I was saying]

Keep in mind, this will all depend on how seriously you take your christianity. I'm sure there are some christians who simply believe in Jesus and their religion doesn't really affect their lives at all. You don't strike me as one of those though...

So to start, if you go to church regularly...you've lost your entire Sunday mornings. You lose all kinds of freedoms for roughly 1/21 of your waking hours every week. Added up over sixty years...and well, you've spent entire years doing what others have wanted you to do. Of course, if your beliefs are true...you'll probably view this as time well spent. If your beliefs are wrong though...then you've wasted entire years of your life...a large chunk of time that you'll never get back. Perhaps this is part of the reason you hate atheists? Deep down you feel like it's a waste of time...and you resent atheists for not fearing hell and judgement the way you do. Overall though, this is a small example of the freedom you've lost.

Would you like to hear more?

Yes I would like to hear more as the example you gave is totally and utterly and complete rubbish because I love meeting with my other brothers and sisters on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. on Sunday I meet with about 400 of them in a theatre. We have an awesome band and anointed worship leaders and most times we meet the presence of God comes down from heaven and fills the room. I only wish we met all day then I could waste more than 1/21 of my time as you so quaintly put it.

Nothing I do, NOTHING when I am about kingdom business is a waste of time.

 

[Davian]

Sharing.

Proselytizing.

 

[Cearbhall]

Do you have the names and addresses of those first-hand witnesses?

Helen Keller is actually an interesting case of this. When she was informed of the concept, she rejoiced at having a name for what she had always felt. Of course, it's possible that she remembered it from before her illness.

Either way, I don't think that this sense of something greater is actual evidence of such a being.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Any philosophy of life which excludes God.


Any philosophy of life which excludes God can be said to contain Godless idealism.

So if I don't hold to any particular "philosophy of life"...your claims about "godless ideals" or "doctrines of doubt" don't really apply to me.

You do realize atheism is one position regarding on topic...right? It's not a comprehensive worldview, or spiritual identity, or religion. That's why when you make up terms like "doctrines of doubt" or "godless ideals" you might find the occasional "lol" coming from the atheists you're addressing.

 

[As I was saying]

Many, many Christians fully support theistic evolution. It is not contradictory to your religion, though it may very well be contradictory to your particular denomination or personal faith.

First what other so called christian support is of no interest to me. The only thing I support is what I read in the bible and when I stand before the judgment seat of Christ I will not have to give an account of what other people thought.

Second, of course it is not contrary to my religion because I don't have one. I have a one on one relationship with God that precludes religion and all its trappings.

Third, I don't belong to any denomination.

Fourth, The only thing that my personal faith has to align with is the word of God. I ignore that which is not found there.

 

[Cearbhall]

Any philosophy of life which excludes God.

Any philosophy of life which excludes God can be said to contain Godless idealism.

Ok. Could you give some examples of such philosophies?

First what other so called christian support is of no interest to me.

That's completely fine. I understand that if you don't support it, then you would consider them to be in error. I have no problem with that. However, I will still call them Christians.

 

[Davian]

Standing outside and looking through a dim and stained glass in on Christianity is not the best place to be if one wants to see it for what it is.

Would you buy a Rolex watch for a loved one after only having seen it through such a glass window?

No.

You would go in and look at it close up and for yourself, without the obstruction of the dim and stained glass.

I have had a close up look a many interpretations of Christian theology right here in these forum. You yourself have participated in that.

Maybe because the revelation is obscured from your sight by virtue of you looking at from what you perceive to be your privileged position, which is actually just you looking at it through the darkened lens of your carnal mind and heart.

How do you know that about him? Do you have one of those mind-readin hats?

Mind-Reading Hat

• Davian
• Jul 30, 2015

 

[As I was saying]

I'm not going to respond to irrelevant personal attacks. It's a waste of my time, and I'm not interested.

Do you or do you not refute my claim that "Ignorance is bliss" could not apply to hard atheists? If you do, why? This claim is the reason why you addressed me. I'd be interested in hearing your response.

But the fact is you did respond as we all know atheists have to have the last word because if they didn't they would feel inadequate.

 

[Davian]

And again you pass up the opportunity to say something intelligent to show that you can discuss something in depth. No surprise there.

Again you pass up the opportunity to show that your convictions are on "solid ground". The evidence mounts up. You have been reduced to being argumentative. Do it again.

 

[Davian]

How convenient.

Especially since you "know" that Christianity consists of some 38,000 different sects, you're pretty safe in your cocoon of "seeker," aren't you?

I'll wait here while you get them all sorted out.

 

[anonymous person]

Keep in mind, this will all depend on how seriously you take your christianity. I'm sure there are some christians who simply believe in Jesus and their religion doesn't really affect their lives at all. You don't strike me as one of those though...

So to start, if you go to church regularly...you've lost your entire Sunday mornings. You lose all kinds of freedoms for roughly 1/21 of your waking hours every week. Added up over sixty years...and well, you've spent entire years doing what others have wanted you to do. Of course, if your beliefs are true...you'll probably view this as time well spent. If your beliefs are wrong though...then you've wasted entire years of your life...a large chunk of time that you'll never get back. Perhaps this is part of the reason you hate atheists? Deep down you feel like it's a waste of time...and you resent atheists for not fearing hell and judgement the way you do. Overall though, this is a small example of the freedom you've lost.

Would you like to hear more?

Freedom to do what? Sit at home and watch cartoons in my pajamas?

Freedom to lay around and watch porn and touch?

Freedom to wake up and reach for a glass of wine, or a joint, or six pack?

Freedom to wake up and read the latest best seller?

Freedom to wake up and jog, work in the yard, ride a bike, drive to the store, go on a vacation, lay in bed listening to music?

Freedom to have sex all day?

Freedom to run around looking for someone to have sex with?

Freedom to do whatever it is you do on Sundays?

Freedom to go out and fly a kite?

I go to church on more than just Sunday morning my friend. I go whenever I can because I want to. I love going to be with my brothers and sisters. I love being in a place where people can come who have become tired of spending their Sunday mornings engaging in trifles and are seeking some true and lasting peace, joy, and meaningfulness in their lives.

I earnestly seek to spend every waking moment in the presence of God. I assure you my friend, there is nothing that I have entrusted to Him, whether it be my time, my money, my dreams, my goals, my ambitions, and yes my Sunday mornings, that He has not kept and not only that but taken and blessed and restored to me ten fold.

There is nothing I would rather do on any day of the week, than the will of God. No regrets shall I have from taking His will as my own. So I want to encourage you not to waste your time in attempting to present some sort of weak argument as to why I or anyone else who is a son or daughter of the Most High God should do anything other than that which He desires for us to do. He knows what is best for us, not you my friend.

 

[Davian]

So the question to you is: Can you use logic using your finite mind to show that this God of the Holy Bible does not exist?

Is this the "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every objective measure to date indistinguishable from nothing? As this story does not comport with observations of reality, your logic would state that this god does not exist.

 

[As I was saying]

Again you pass up the opportunity to show that your convictions are on "solid ground". The evidence mounts up. You have been reduced to being argumentative. Do it again.

Give us something tangible to discuss other than God does not exist and we might have something to say that is worth hearing. It is difficult to make intelligent conversation when the other person does nothing more than make cynical comments and off the cuff retorts that are meaningless.

As a retired teacher, I know that the language you use with primary kids is different to the language you use with VCE students. On here when I am talking to atheists I feel that I have to use primary school language as their ability to comprehend and their ability to articulate rational thought is just not there.

Personally I would much rather you would go away so that I can have a sensible and rational discussion with fellow believers who are not full of cynicism and sarcasm but that is not in my hands so I have to bear my cross accordingly.

 

[Cearbhall]

But the fact is you did respond

Truth be told, I didn't read the paragraph before responding. I assumed that you would only be wrong subjectively and didn't see anything to gain in arguing about it. Then I saw that you were objectively in error when you stated "rubbish about atheism and evolution which none of us believe except atheists," so I thought that I would correct you.

Now, once again, would you like to present your argument against the claim that caused you to address me?

 

[As I was saying]

Spontaneous origin of life “a matter of faith”

“The belief that life on earth arose spontaneously from non-living matter, is simply a matter of faith in strict reductionism and is based entirely on ideology.”

Hubert P. Yockey, 1992 (a non-creationist). Information Theory and Molecular Biology, Cambridge University Press, UK, p. 284.

 

[Chriliman]

I have had a close up look a many interpretations of Christian theology right here in these forum. You yourself have participated in that.

How do you know that about him? Do you have one of those mind-readin hats?

Mind-Reading Hat

• Davian
• Jul 30, 2015

I wouldn't consider online forums a close up look. I think what he meant was a more personal (you know in person) conversation with true Christians. When people talk in person, it's much more personal and memorable and that's by design.

Honestly, I don't remember 3/4ths of the things you say on here.

 

[As I was saying]

Bernard Wood: Human evolution icon illusion

“There is a popular image of human evolution that you’ll find all over the place … On the left of the picture there’s an ape … On the right, a man … Between the two is a succession of figures that become ever more like humans … Our progress from ape to human looks so smooth, so tidy. It’s such a beguiling image that even the experts are loath to let it go. But it is an illusion.”

Bernard Wood (prof. of human origins, George Washington Univ.), “Who are we?” New Scientist, 2366 (26 Oct. 2002), p. 44.

 

[Davian]

Helen Keller is actually an interesting case of this. When she was informed of the concept, she rejoiced at having a name for what she had always felt. Of course, it's possible that she remembered it from before her illness.

Either way, I don't think that this sense of something greater is actual evidence of such a being.

Indeed. And defining God as "a feeling in my head" is a bit underwhelming.