Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

[sahjimira]

Lots of scripture about not remaining a virgin...how about some that says she did?

 

[patricius79]

I can't remember if I've quoted this already, but here is one of St. Louis DeMontfort's passages about how being fully consecrated to Jesus in the Immaculate Virgin allows one to carry greater crosses, with greater ease:

154. I reply that it is quite true that the most faithful servants of the Blessed Virgin, being her greatest favourites, receive from her the best graces and favours from heaven, which are crosses. But I maintain too that these servants of Mary bear their crosses with greater ease and gain more merit and glory. What could check another's progress a thousand times over, or possibly bring about his downfall, does not balk them at all, but even helps them on their way. For this good Mother, filled with the grace and unction of the Holy Spirit, dips all the crosses she prepares for them in the honey of her maternal sweetness and the unction of pure love. They then readily swallow them as they would sugared almonds, though the crosses may be very bitter. I believe that anyone who wishes to be devout and live piously in Jesus will suffer persecution and will have a daily cross to carry. But he will never manage to carry a heavy cross, or carry it joyfully and perseveringly, without a trusting devotion to our Lady, who is the very sweetness of the cross. It is obvious that a person could not keep on eating without great effort unripe fruit which has not been sweetened.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

 

[patricius79]

Lots of scripture about not remaining a virgin...how about some that says she did?

Hi Sahjimira,

I see that you are Pentecostal. I would encourage you to ask the Holy Spirit, through Whom Mary conceived Christ, if Mary is what the Catholic Church says.

I'll make my statement and then move on, as I don't like arguing.

The Bible never claims that the Blessed Virgin had other children besides our Lord.

It refers to "brother" and "sisters" of Christ, which means near relations, such as cousins.

The Bible doesn't tell us which books are Scriptural and innerrant. Actually none of the Biblical books claims inerrancy or canonicity. The Catholic Church--where her Tradition and Magisterium-- does that. The Catholic Church is the historic Church. Protestantism didn't begin until the 1500s. Pentecostal groups--for which I have some affinity, as I have a friend who is an Assembly of God Pastor--came out of Protestantism later on.

The Catholic Church--the source of the N.T. Canon-- also teaches that Mary is the Immaculate Virgin, and our Mother.

The Bible also tells us that we should hold fast to what is handed on, whether orally or in writing 2 Thes 2:15.

John Calvin taught that the arguments that Mary had other children were not only false, but un-Biblical nonsense.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/10/did-john-calvin-believe-in-marys.html


The Bible says that James and Joses are "brothers" of Christ, but also says that James and Joses were children of "the other Mary", the wife of Clopas.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/brethren-of-the-lord


Thus showing the fact that "brothers" in Jewish culture refers to near relations or kinsmen or spiritual brethren.

In Luke 1, at the Annunciation, Mary asks Gabriel "how can this be since I do not know man?". This question--coming from an engaged young woman, who knew where babies come from--makes no sense if she were planning on having physical relations with St. Joseph.

That is St. Augustine's argument, and he stands with the other Church fathers, such as Ambrose, Athanasius, Jerome, and Cyril, who lived much closer to the time of Christ than we do.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

Likewise the Virgin Mary--the highest of all creatures--probably would not have been entrusted to St. John if she had had physical children besides God, her Son.


Peace of Christ,

Pat

 

[Standing Up]

Hi Sahjimira,

The Bible never claims that the Blessed Virgin had other children besides our Lord.

The Bible doesn't tell us which books are Scriptural and innerrant. Actually none of the Biblical books claims inerrancy or canonciity. The Catholic Church--where her Tradition and Magisterium-- does that. The Catholic Church also teaches that Mary is the Immaculate Virgin, and our Mother.

The Bible also tells us that we should hold fast to what is handed on, whether orally or in writing 2 Thes 2:15.

Even John Calvin taught that the arguments that Mary had other children were not only false, but un-Biblical nonsense.

http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2014/10/did-john-calvin-believe-in-marys.html


The Bible says that James and Joses are "brothers" of Christ, but also says that James and Joses were children of "the other Mary", the wife of Clopas.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/brethren-of-the-lord


Thus showing that "brothers" in Jewish culture refers to near relations or kinsmen or spiritual brethren.

In Luke 1, at the Annunciation, Mary asks Gabriel "how can this be since I do not know man?". This question--coming from an engaged young woman, who knew where babies come from--makes no sense if she were planning on having physical relations with St. Joseph.

That is St. Augustine's argument, and he stands with the other Church fathers, such as Ambrose, Athanasius, Jerome, and Cyril, who lived much closer to the time of Christ than we do.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

Likewise Mary would not have been entrusted to St. John if she had had physical children besides God, her Son.


Peace of Christ,

Pat

So nothing from scripture that says she remained a virgin. Yet we do have scripture that says Jesus had brothers (4 are named) and at least 2 unnamed sisters.

 

[sahjimira]

I can't remember if I've quoted this already, but here is one of St. Louis DeMontfort's passages about how being fully consecrated to Jesus in the Immaculate Virgin allows one to carry greater crosses, with greater ease:

154. I reply that it is quite true that the most faithful servants of the Blessed Virgin, being her greatest favourites, receive from her the best graces and favours from heaven, which are crosses. But I maintain too that these servants of Mary bear their crosses with greater ease and gain more merit and glory. What could check another's progress a thousand times over, or possibly bring about his downfall, does not balk them at all, but even helps them on their way. For this good Mother, filled with the grace and unction of the Holy Spirit, dips all the crosses she prepares for them in the honey of her maternal sweetness and the unction of pure love. They then readily swallow them as they would sugared almonds, though the crosses may be very bitter. I believe that anyone who wishes to be devout and live piously in Jesus will suffer persecution and will have a daily cross to carry. But he will never manage to carry a heavy cross, or carry it joyfully and perseveringly, without a trusting devotion to our Lady, who is the very sweetness of the cross. It is obvious that a person could not keep on eating without great effort unripe fruit which has not been sweetened.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

Hi, actually I meant scripture from the bible

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her until [after] she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.
Matthew 1

If there was a place in scripture that would teach the perpetual virginity of Mary it would be found here,, but we find quite the contrary. Instead of saying "and Jospeh NEVER knew Mary" it says he did not know her up until after the virgin birth. And we can assume it was this time afterwards that Jesus' brothers were born of Mary and Jospeh

 

[patricius79]

Biblically, the word "until" doesn't imply a subsequent change of condition. I believe that is covered in the link about "brethren of the lord" which I posted above

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/brethren-of-the-lord


Again, Calvin thought that such arguments against Mary's Perpetual Virginity were nonsense.

And Luther, likewise, believed that the Mother of God was Ever-Virgin, along with the Church fathers (see link above "Mary: Ever Virgin)

It's also interesting that the Bible never talks about Mary conceiving other children, or about Jesus's interactions or growing up with these supposed siblings.

For instance in the episode where Jesus disappears on the way back from celebrating Passover (hope I have that detail right), there is no mention of other children.

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Corinthians 7:1-5 ESV)

If Mary married Joseph and became his wife.. yet she perpetually denied him is conjugal rights. Then Mary would stand as condemned according to the laws of both old and new testament.

 

[sahjimira]

Guess I'll have to agree to disagree

 

[patricius79]

It makes sense to place our trust in God's Mother rather than in ourselves, since we are so weak, sinful, and frail. But Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit simply when she heard Mary's voice, and John the Baptist was instantly sanctified, even in the womb.

I place my trust in the Blessed Virgin rather than in my self. I love her sweet voice and her kindness.

By this devotion we entrust all we possess to Mary, the faithful Virgin. We choose her as the guardian of all our possessions in the natural and supernatural sphere. We trust her because she is faithful, we rely on her strength, we count on her mercy and charity to preserve and increase our virtues and merits in spite of the efforts of the devil, the world, and the flesh to rob us of them. We say to her as a good child would say to its mother or a faithful servant to the mistress of the house, "My dear Mother and Mistress, I realise that up to now I have received from God through your intercession more graces than I deserve. But bitter experience has taught me that I carry these riches in a very fragile vessel and that I am too weak and sinful to guard them by myself. Please accept in trust everything I possess, and in your faithfulness and power keep it for me. If you watch over me, I shall lose nothing. If you support me, I shall not fail. If you protect me, I shall be safe from my enemies."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

 

[Standing Up]

It makes sense to trust God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It makes sense to trust God.

Indeed, it makes much more sense to me to trust God than to trust anyone else.

 

[SeventyOne]

I can't remember if I've quoted this already, but here is one of St. Louis DeMontfort's passages about how being fully consecrated to Jesus in the Immaculate Virgin allows one to carry greater crosses, with greater ease:

154. I reply that it is quite true that the most faithful servants of the Blessed Virgin, being her greatest favourites, receive from her the best graces and favours from heaven, which are crosses. But I maintain too that these servants of Mary bear their crosses with greater ease and gain more merit and glory. What could check another's progress a thousand times over, or possibly bring about his downfall, does not balk them at all, but even helps them on their way. For this good Mother, filled with the grace and unction of the Holy Spirit, dips all the crosses she prepares for them in the honey of her maternal sweetness and the unction of pure love. They then readily swallow them as they would sugared almonds, though the crosses may be very bitter. I believe that anyone who wishes to be devout and live piously in Jesus will suffer persecution and will have a daily cross to carry. But he will never manage to carry a heavy cross, or carry it joyfully and perseveringly, without a trusting devotion to our Lady, who is the very sweetness of the cross. It is obvious that a person could not keep on eating without great effort unripe fruit which has not been sweetened.
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

She dips crosses "in the honey of her maternal sweetness and the unction of pure love"? He sounds confused. That's not even a lucid thought. Where does one keep the honey of maternal sweetness? Is it kept in a jar in the pantry?

When Jesus said to pick up our cross daily, it seems He left off the part about when we do, to allow His earthly mother to smother it in maternal honey first.

 

[patricius79]

I believe it is impossible to worship God, without honoring the Virgin Mary, or to honor Mary without worshiping God.

As the highest of all God's creatures, the Immaculate Virgin is our Mother and Mediatrix of all Graces.

She is completely devoted to God. When we pray to our Virgin Mother, we are recognizing our own sinfulness, and that we need a Mediatrix with the Holy Spirit, who brings us to the Son, the One Mediator between God (the Father) and men.

One of the miracles--along with the miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the millions of conversions that followed-- that confirms the Catholic teachings about the Virgin is the appearance of the Blessed Mother to St. Catherine Laboure in 1830, whose body is still incorrupt.

Our Lady asked St. Catherine to tell her confessor that she wanted a medal to be made and distributed, with an image of her, and an inscription which says "O Mary Conceived Without Sin, Pray for Us Who have Recourse to Thee".

She promised great graces to those who would wear this medal and ask for graces with faith and fervor.

As Stephen Breen writes:

After a time the small ball representing the world in Our Lady's hands vanished and she lowered her arms outstretched, and the rays glittered and glistened more brilliantly than before. Around her Queenly head appeared the luminous letters of the words: "O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee." A frame of gold appeared around the entire vision as Our Lady said, "Have a medal struck after this model. All who wear it will receive great graces; it should be worn around the neck.

Great graces will be given to those who wear it with confidence."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDAL.HTM



And as Zsolt Aradi writes:

The messages of Our Lady to Catherine pointed to coming upheavals in France and the world. She warned of great troubles, acute dangers, of a time when everyone would believe all to be lost. "The Cross will be trampled on, blood will run in the streets, the world will be plunged into sadness. But grace will be showered upon all who ask for it with faith and fervor." And as a means to help spread the fervor, Our Lady told Catherine Laboure that a medal should be coined based on Catherine's impression of one of the visions. The young nun remembered that at the second apparition of Our Lady, she stood on a globe, holding in her hands another globe, which reflected rays of light of great brilliance. The Blessed Virgin had explained to Catherine that the globe represented the entire world, France in particular and especially every single person, on whom she would bestow grace. Then the apparition altered, and Catherine saw a letter M surmounted by a Cross, standing on a bar beneath which were two hearts, the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Our Lady's desire that the medal be coined after this model was not fulfilled immediately, but when Catherine's confessor finally saw the importance of the visions, action was taken. The medal was coined and the first one taken to the Archbishop of Paris. Believing in the miraculous powers of the medal, he went with it to a man who was his close friend, although an apostate priest, the Archbishop of Malines in Belgium. Archbishop Pradt of Malines had deserted the Church during the French Revolution and firmly refused to submit himself to the authority of Rome. When the Archbishop of Paris visited him at his deathbed, Pradt immediately humbled himself and became reconciled with the Church. After this first miraculous event, wonderful favors were showered upon those who carried it: the medal became known and millions wore it throughout the world. One of the most remarkable events connected with the medal was the conversion of Theodore Ratisbonne, the descendant of a wealthy Alsatian Jewish family, a man of great culture but completely agnostic. He ascribed his sudden conversion to the Miraculous Medal. Ratisbonne and his brother became priests and founded the community of Notre Dame de Sion for the conversion of the Jews.
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3049

 

[sahjimira]

[QUI've="patricius79, post: 68680829, member: 249421"]I believe it is impossible to worship God, without honoring the Virgin Mary, or to honor Mary without worshiping God.

As the highest of all God's creatures, the Immaculate Virgin is our Mother and Mediatrix of all Graces.

She is completely devoted to God. When we pray to our Virgin Mother, we are recognizing our own sinfulness, and that we need a Mediatrix with the Holy Spirit, who brings us to the Son, the One Mediator between God (the Father) and men.[/QUOTE]
As I've said before I agree to disagree

 

[Wgw]

Guess I'll have to agree to disagree

Here you quote John Wesley, who did believe that St. Mary remained a virgin.

 

[Standing Up]

As the highest of all God's creatures, the Immaculate Virgin is our Mother and Mediatrix of all Graces.

Could one even say, without her ever-virgin status, salvation is not possible?

 

[patricius79]

The the Perfect Virgin Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe protects me every day.

So often in my spiritual life I have tried to do good, but invariably fall into trouble and sin, because I am so weak.

That is why I need the Blessed Virgin to protect me everyday. I know her. She knows me. She protects me. As St. Louis DeMontfort writes:


By this devotion we entrust all we possess to Mary, the faithful Virgin. We choose her as the guardian of all our possessions in the natural and supernatural sphere. We trust her because she is faithful, we rely on her strength, we count on her mercy and charity to preserve and increase our virtues and merits in spite of the efforts of the devil, the world, and the flesh to rob us of them. We say to her as a good child would say to its mother or a faithful servant to the mistress of the house, "My dear Mother and Mistress, I realise that up to now I have received from God through your intercession more graces than I deserve. But bitter experience has taught me that I carry these riches in a very fragile vessel and that I am too weak and sinful to guard them by myself. Please accept in trust everything I possess, and in your faithfulness and power keep it for me. If you watch over me, I shall lose nothing. If you support me, I shall not fail. If you protect me, I shall be safe from my enemies."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Ch. 4

 

[bbbbbbb]

The the Perfect Virgin Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe protects me every day.

So often in my spiritual life I have tried to do good, but invariably fall into trouble and sin, because I am so weak.

That is why I need the Blessed Virgin to protect me everyday. I know her. She knows me. She protects me. As St. Louis DeMontfort writes:


By this devotion we entrust all we possess to Mary, the faithful Virgin. We choose her as the guardian of all our possessions in the natural and supernatural sphere. We trust her because she is faithful, we rely on her strength, we count on her mercy and charity to preserve and increase our virtues and merits in spite of the efforts of the devil, the world, and the flesh to rob us of them. We say to her as a good child would say to its mother or a faithful servant to the mistress of the house, "My dear Mother and Mistress, I realise that up to now I have received from God through your intercession more graces than I deserve. But bitter experience has taught me that I carry these riches in a very fragile vessel and that I am too weak and sinful to guard them by myself. Please accept in trust everything I possess, and in your faithfulness and power keep it for me. If you watch over me, I shall lose nothing. If you support me, I shall not fail. If you protect me, I shall be safe from my enemies."
https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Ch. 4

Wow! You keep falling deeper into Mariolatry.

By the way, you still have not addressed the question I have posed to you.

If Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Jesus is the King of Heaven, how does God the Father fit into the picture. Is He just a silent observer?

 

[justinangel]

Scripture says Christ opened the womb, while the EV dogma states the womb remained closed. Amazing.

And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”
Luke 2, 22-24

This verse does not state that Jesus physically opened his mother's womb when he was born. What we have in Luke is a citation of the Mosaic law which actually applies to all Jewish firstborn males, except Jesus who was not bound by the law. Also, by saying the "male that opens the womb" it means "the first male issuance of the womb" (Num. 3:12). It's amazing that you apparently cite this passage to prove that Jesus literally opened his mother's womb, since we know for a fact that our Lord did not have to be redeemed as all other firstborn Jewish males before and after him, certainly not by any precept of the Mosaic law. Jesus fulfilled the law, but was not bound by it. The requirements of the Mosaic law did not apply to Jesus in any way, including his birth.

PAX