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Natural selection v Intelligent design

Loudmouth

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interesting, so this is if someone accepts the RNA first hypothesis also known as RNA world.

No, this is a fact. Randomly assembled molecules have information as you define it. It occurs through chemistry and physics.



my surprising question always has been how can something be chemically explained when it has no chemical bonds. There are molecules in both transfer RNA and DNA which have no interaction between amino acid and nucleotide codon.

The interaction occurs between the 3 anti-codon bases of the tRNA and the codon on the mRNA. This interaction is guided by hydrogen bonds and the availability of the hydrogen bonds on each molecule. The hydrogen bonds on C line up with G, for example. The amino acid associated with that codon is covalently linked to the tRNA molecule.



trna-molecule-structure.jpeg


The bulges and loops on the tRNA is caused by the molecular interaction of the hydrogen bonds between the bases in the tRNA itself. Again, A binds to U, G binds to C, and the reverse complement of that, as seen in the first picture. The bulges and loops also provide places for proteins to bind, which are responsible for covalently attaching the amino acid to the tRNA and for extending the peptide during translation.

All of it is chemistry and physics.

There are no significant differential affinities between any of the four bases and the binding sites along the sugar-phosphate backbone, instead the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) occurs between the base and the backbone regardless of which base attaches.

There are significant differential affinities for one base to another which is what drives the process.

RNA has been formed in a laboratory but with a ''skilled'' chemist behind it, one would think who played the role of a skilled chemist in the prebiotic soup,

Also Frank Salisbury put it nicely

''It's nice to talk about replicating DNA molecules arising in a soupy sea, but in modern cells this replication requires the presence of suitable enzymes.The link between DNA and the enzyme is a highly complex one, involving RNA and an enzyme for its synthesis on a DNA template; ribosomes; enzymes to activate the amino acids; and transfer-RNA molecules. ... How, in the absence of the final enzyme, could selection act upon DNA and all the mechanisms for replicating it? It's as though everything must happen at once: the entire system must come into being as one unit, or it is worthless. There may well be ways out of this dilemma, but I don't see them at the moment.
(Frank B. Salisbury, "Doubts about the Modern Synthetic Theory of Evolution," American Biology Teacher, 33: 335-338 (September, 1971)

Again, random sequence produces viable enzymes, purely through chemistry and physics.
 
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stevevw

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Go back, re-read.

You brought him up! :doh:
I know but I'm beginning to regret it now. It seems to have been made such as major thing to have spent a dozen or so pages on. Like I said that wasn't the original point and it has been taken down such a trivial sidetrack that it sort of mutes anything else.

I mean what is the point, that brain surgeons are not smart enough to understand the evolution of the brain, that scientists who dont do evolution aren't smart enough to understand the evolution of the brain, that you have to be an expert in evolution to understand the evolution of the brain, that the evolution of the brain has been proven, there is evidence that shows the evolution of the brain would be impossible or the credibility of Dr Carson.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I know but I'm beginning to regret it now. It seems to have been made such as major thing to have spent a dozen or so pages on. Like I said that wasn't the original point and it has been taken down such a trivial sidetrack that it sort of mutes anything else.
A trivial sidetrack? You presented Carson as an authority on a particular topic. I showed you that he wasn't, and yet despite constantly claiming that you were open to changing your mind if presented with good evidence, you intransigently insisted that he was. Now it appears that Carson's scientific ignorance extends to astrophysics also. Yet you dismiss this as well.
 
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Zlatanara

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No, this is a fact. Randomly assembled molecules have information as you define it. It occurs through chemistry and physics.





The interaction occurs between the 3 anti-codon bases of the tRNA and the codon on the mRNA. This interaction is guided by hydrogen bonds and the availability of the hydrogen bonds on each molecule. The hydrogen bonds on C line up with G, for example. The amino acid associated with that codon is covalently linked to the tRNA molecule.



trna-molecule-structure.jpeg


The bulges and loops on the tRNA is caused by the molecular interaction of the hydrogen bonds between the bases in the tRNA itself. Again, A binds to U, G binds to C, and the reverse complement of that, as seen in the first picture. The bulges and loops also provide places for proteins to bind, which are responsible for covalently attaching the amino acid to the tRNA and for extending the peptide during translation.

All of it is chemistry and physics.



There are significant differential affinities for one base to another which is what drives the process.



Again, random sequence produces viable enzymes, purely through chemistry and physics.

You have to understand that the strongest point ID makes is not just ''the least complex cell'' that is the foundation of the argument, what makes it really competitive is origin of the information in DNA. In case if you thought that the protein first model was not justified by the calculations (Dembskis or Alex) you need to understand that whether functional proteins had arisen before DNA or not, the origin of info rich DNA molecules still needed explanation, if for no other reason than because info rich DNA molecules exist in all extant cells. At some point DNA must have arisen as a carrier of the information for building proteins and then come into association with functional proteins. One way or another, the origin of genetic information still needed to be explained.

In extant cells, DNA provides the template of information for building proteins and not the reverse. Information flows from DNA to proteins

Each triplet of DNA bases (and corresponding RNA codons) specifies exactly one amino acid during transcription and translation. Yet most amino acids correspond to more than one nucleotide triplet or RNA codon. This feature of the genetic code ensures that information can flow without ''degeneracy,'' or loss of specificity, in only one direction, from DNA to proteins and not the reverse.

Unlike DNA, proteins do not possess two antiparallel strands of identical information and thus cannot be unwound and copied in the way DNA can.

There are many more reasons i can show, but to keep it short, due to such reasons it seemed difficult to envision proteins serving as replicators of their own stored information.

This is very important because even if you doubt the early proteins to deny Dembskis calculations, there is no denial that DNA information originated through complexity.

If the information in DNA did not arise first in proteins, its highly doubt-able that DNA possessed any self-organizational properties analogous to those identified in amino acids and proteins.

DNA base sequencing cannot be explained by lower-level chemical laws or properties any more than the information in a newspaper headline can be explained by reference to the chemical properties of ink. Information in DNA does not reduce or derive from physical and chemical forces implied that the information in DNA did not originate from such forces.

i uploaded a clear model of the chemical structure for you

PDvESUh.png


look at the gaps between T and A, G and C etc

(by the way i borrowed the drawing from Fred Hareen)

One of the most fascinating thing if you look at the model of the chemical structure of a DNA is that there are no chemical bonds between the bases along the longitudinal axis in the center of the helix. Yet it is precisely along this axis of the DNA molecule that the genetic information is stored.

DNAs information-rich sequences by appealing to differential bonding affinities meant that there had to be chemical bonds of differing strength between the different bases along the information-bearing axis of the DNA molecule. Yet, as it turns out, there are no differential bonding affinites there. Indeed there is not just an absence of differing bonding affinities; there are no bonds at all between the critical information-bearing bases in DNA.

A force has to exist before it can cause something and the relevant kind of force in this case (differing chemical attractions between nucleotide bases) does not exist within the DNA molecule.

There are no significant differential affinities between any of the four bases and the binding sites along the sugar-phosphate backbone, instead the same time of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) occurs between the base and the backbone regardless of which base attaches.

All bases are acceptable; non is chemically favored :)

Credit: Signature in the cell
 
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Loudmouth

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You have to understand that the strongest point ID makes is not just ''the least complex cell'' that is the foundation of the argument, what makes it really competitive is origin of the information in DNA.

As your posts have shown, ID is wrong about information at every step.

In case if you thought that the protein first model was not justified by the calculations (Dembskis or Alex) you need to understand that whether functional proteins had arisen before DNA or not, the origin of info rich DNA molecules still needed explanation, if for no other reason than because info rich DNA molecules exist in all extant cells.

Scientists are looking for the origin of these molecules. ID/Creationists are not. That's the difference, and also the danger of creationism. When you start with the conclusion in the absence of evidence, you don't look for evidence. That's why you don't see ID/Creationists doing science to back their claims.

In extant cells, DNA provides the template of information for building proteins and not the reverse. Information flows from DNA to proteins

Protein and RNA copy the DNA. It does go the other direction. There are also retroviruses that copy RNA into DNA, as another example. There really is no hierarchy between proteins, RNA, and DNA. They all interact to produce the final product, which is the organism.

Each triplet of DNA bases (and corresponding RNA codons) specifies exactly one amino acid during transcription and translation. Yet most amino acids correspond to more than one nucleotide triplet or RNA codon. This feature of the genetic code ensures that information can flow without ''degeneracy,'' or loss of specificity, in only one direction, from DNA to proteins and not the reverse.

The specificity of DNA replication is guided by RNA and protein. The specificity of translation is determined by the interaction of proteins and tRNA's. Mutations in the proteins that attach amino acids to tRNA's can result in a different amino acid sequence.

Unlike DNA, proteins do not possess two antiparallel strands of identical information and thus cannot be unwound and copied in the way DNA can.

Proteins still have information in a single strand. Ice crystals still have information in the form of a hexagonal crystal.

There are many more reasons i can show, but to keep it short, due to such reasons it seemed difficult to envision proteins serving as replicators of their own stored information.

Ribozymes can fill the role of both DNA and proteins.

DNA base sequencing cannot be explained by lower-level chemical laws or properties any more than the information in a newspaper headline can be explained by reference to the chemical properties of ink.

Yes, it can. It is as simple as the chemical and physical interaction between protein polymerases and hydrogen bonding between nucleotides.

DNAs information-rich sequences by appealing to differential bonding affinities meant that there had to be chemical bonds of differing strength between the different bases along the information-bearing axis of the DNA molecule. Yet, as it turns out, there are no differential bonding affinites there.

Every molecular biologists knows that you are wrong. Ever designed PCR primers? Do you know how a Tm is calculated? Do you know why a DNA probe binds to a specific stretch of genomic DNA on a Southern blot? It all has to do with the differential bonding affinities between nucleotides.
 
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Zlatanara

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As your posts have shown, ID is wrong about information at every step.



Scientists are looking for the origin of these molecules. ID/Creationists are not. That's the difference, and also the danger of creationism. When you start with the conclusion in the absence of evidence, you don't look for evidence. That's why you don't see ID/Creationists doing science to back their claims.



Protein and RNA copy the DNA. It does go the other direction. There are also retroviruses that copy RNA into DNA, as another example. There really is no hierarchy between proteins, RNA, and DNA. They all interact to produce the final product, which is the organism.



The specificity of DNA replication is guided by RNA and protein. The specificity of translation is determined by the interaction of proteins and tRNA's. Mutations in the proteins that attach amino acids to tRNA's can result in a different amino acid sequence.



Proteins still have information in a single strand. Ice crystals still have information in the form of a hexagonal crystal.



Ribozymes can fill the role of both DNA and proteins.



Yes, it can. It is as simple as the chemical and physical interaction between protein polymerases and hydrogen bonding between nucleotides.



Every molecular biologists knows that you are wrong. Ever designed PCR primers? Do you know how a Tm is calculated? Do you know why a DNA probe binds to a specific stretch of genomic DNA on a Southern blot? It all has to do with the differential bonding affinities between nucleotides.

what was your answer again for not having direct chemical interaction between the amino acid and the nucleotide that specifies it?

Are you aware that the anti-codon triplet and amino acid are situated at opposite ends of tRNA?

All the 20 Trna molecules consist with the same final triplet bases where their amino acids attach. Since all of them attach to the same nucleotide sequence its obvious that the only the property of that nucleotide sequence clearly do not determine which amino acids attach and which do not. The nucleotide sequence is indifferent to which amino acid binds to it.

Similarly you can take the sugar phosphate backbone in DNA which is indifferent to which nucleotide base binds to it.

physically and chemically arbitrary. All possible codes are just about similar are equal, non if chemically favored. The chemical properties of the amino acids and nucleotides dont determine a single universal genetic code (since there is not just one code it cannot be inevitable)

Firstly to explain the origin of the genetic code, scientists should describe the origin of precise set of correspondences between specific nucleotide triplets in DNA similarly the codons on the messenger RNA, also specific amino acids carried by transfer RNA. Molecular biologists have failed to find any chemical interaction between codons on mRNA similarly in the anticodons on tRNA and the amino acids on the acceptor arm of tRNA which are corresponded by codons.

What does this mean? well forces of chemical bond or attraction if you like to say between amino acids and these groups of bases dont simply explain the correspondences that constitute the genetic code.

qUsnAVI.png


Notice again there is no direct chemical interaction between amino acid and nucleotide codon that specifies it
 
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stevevw

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A trivial sidetrack? You presented Carson as an authority on a particular topic. I showed you that he wasn't, and yet despite constantly claiming that you were open to changing your mind if presented with good evidence, you intransigently insisted that he was. Now it appears that Carson's scientific ignorance extends to astrophysics also. Yet you dismiss this as well.
No I didn't say he was an authority and this is where you are taking it. As I said before surely he should know more than the average person. He had described the processes in the brain on a video which was evidence in itself that he had more knowledge than most about the processes in the brain. I didn't say he was an expert but merely said because he was a brain surgeon and studied biology he was in a good position to know more than most. In the context of the topic being discussed it was a trivial side track because it was one bit of evidence among many bits. But you chose to focus in on this and then run with it and now still continue to run with it.

You could have focused in on a number of other bits of evidence that also were relevant. The credibility of Carson doesn't discredit the overall proof of the point. If I was to not use Carson as support or you were to discredit him does that then prove you are right and I am wrong in regards to the original point. No it doesn't. But what it does do is take a lot of time on one piece of evidence when there may be another 20 pieces that need to be looked at that may also have a bearing. But because so much time has been spent on this its become another issue about Dr Carson and not the original point. I cant believe you are still going on with it when things had moved on.
 
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Loudmouth

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what was your answer again for not having direct chemical interaction between the amino acid and the nucleotide that specifies it?

"The interaction occurs between the 3 anti-codon bases of the tRNA and the codon on the mRNA. This interaction is guided by hydrogen bonds and the availability of the hydrogen bonds on each molecule. The hydrogen bonds on C line up with G, for example. The amino acid associated with that codon is covalently linked to the tRNA molecule."

Are you aware that the anti-codon triplet and amino acid are situated at opposite ends of tRNA?

Yes, they are parts of the same molecule. That is the direct connection between the two. It is entirely chemical and physical.

All the 20 Trna molecules consist with the same final triplet bases where their amino acids attach. Since all of them attach to the same nucleotide sequence its obvious that the only the property of that nucleotide sequence clearly do not determine which amino acids attach and which do not. The nucleotide sequence is indifferent to which amino acid binds to it.

"Both classes of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are multidomain proteins. In a typical scenario, an aaRS consists of a catalytic domain (where both the above reactions take place) and an anticodon binding domain (which interacts mostly with the anticodon region of the tRNA and ensures binding of the correct tRNA to the amino acid)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminoacyl_tRNA_synthetase

The physical and chemical interactions between the binding domains of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases and the anti-codon are responsible for the attachment of the amino acid to the tRNA.

Similarly you can take the sugar phosphate backbone in DNA which is indifferent to which nucleotide base binds to it.

The chemical and physical interactions between RNA, proteins, and DNA are not indifferent to which base is used to extend the polymer. This is all due to the chemical and physical interactions between RNA, DNA, and proteins.

Firstly to explain the origin of the genetic code, scientists should describe the origin of precise set of correspondences between specific nucleotide triplets in DNA similarly the codons on the messenger RNA, also specific amino acids carried by transfer RNA. Molecular biologists have failed to find any chemical interaction between codons on mRNA similarly in the anticodons on tRNA and the amino acids on the acceptor arm of tRNA which are corresponded by codons.

This is completely false.

What does this mean? well forces of chemical bond or attraction if you like to say between amino acids and these groups of bases dont simply explain the correspondences that constitute the genetic code.

It is the interaction between the binding site in the protein and the anti-codon on the tRNA. This is a purely chemical and physical interaction. It is a direct interaction.
 
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Zlatanara

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"The interaction occurs between the 3 anti-codon bases of the tRNA and the codon on the mRNA. This interaction is guided by hydrogen bonds and the availability of the hydrogen bonds on each molecule. The hydrogen bonds on C line up with G, for example. The amino acid associated with that codon is covalently linked to the tRNA molecule."



Yes, they are parts of the same molecule. That is the direct connection between the two. It is entirely chemical and physical.



"Both classes of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are multidomain proteins. In a typical scenario, an aaRS consists of a catalytic domain (where both the above reactions take place) and an anticodon binding domain (which interacts mostly with the anticodon region of the tRNA and ensures binding of the correct tRNA to the amino acid)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminoacyl_tRNA_synthetase

The physical and chemical interactions between the binding domains of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases and the anti-codon are responsible for the attachment of the amino acid to the tRNA.



The chemical and physical interactions between RNA, proteins, and DNA are not indifferent to which base is used to extend the polymer. This is all due to the chemical and physical interactions between RNA, DNA, and proteins.



This is completely false.



It is the interaction between the binding site in the protein and the anti-codon on the tRNA. This is a purely chemical and physical interaction. It is a direct interaction.
i am not sure what fact are you basing on making claims such as ''this is completely false''

Conscious intelligence plays the same essential role in ribozyme engineering. Recall that ribozyme engineers attempt to enhance the capacity of RNA catalysts in order to demonstrate the plausibility of the RNA world.

http://www.allaboutscience.org/rna-world-and-ribozyme-engineering-faq.htm

In particular, ribozyme engineers want to show that linking enzymes called RNA ligases can acquire true polymerase function, making possible template-directed self-replication. Yet, ribozyme engineers using an “irrational-design approach” encounter a crucial lacuna that they must use their intelligence to bridge. The irrational-design approach seeks to model a form of prebiotic natural selection to enhance the function of the ligases. Incremental improvements in, or slight additions to, the function of these enzymes are preserved, replicated, amplified, and then selected for further mutation and selection in hopes of eventually producing a polymerase capable of template-directed self-replication. Yet before the emergence of true polymerases, nothing in nature would perform these critical steps (preservation, replication, amplification),even poorly. Absent an enzyme capable of true self-replication, natural selection is not yet a factor.

So what supplies this gap in ribozyme engineering experiments? What causes a molecule possessing merely possible indicators of a future selectable function to be preserved? The investigators themselves—the ribozyme engineers. The ribozyme engineers have the foresight to see that ligase capacity, in conjunction with the other capacities of true polymerases, might enable self-replication to proceed. So they select molecules with slightly enhanced ligase capacity. Then they preserve and optimize these molecules. They “enrich by repeated selection and amplification”

as one paper puts it. Moreover, they intervene in this way before any of the other functions that true polymerases perform are fully present. Thus, the investigators anticipate a future function not yet present in the emerging ligase itself. They choose RNA sequences informed by knowledge of the conditions required to actualize that future function of template-directed self-replication. Since nature lacks such foresight, the ribozyme engineer supplies what nature does not. The engineer acts as both replicator and selector—though no molecule capable of acting as a replicator would have yet existed in the early stages of the RNA world.

In the most successful ribozyme engineering experiments, the investigators help their ligases along in other ways. In nature, polymerases have the capacity to unwind double-stranded DNA molecules before copying them. Ligases cannot do this. So ribozyme engineers provide only single-stranded RNA molecules to the ribozyme so that they can catalyze the ligation of two such strands. The investigators also provide purified reagents, remove chemical substances to prevent unwanted cross reactions, and stabilize and position the molecules upon which the ribozymes must act. Each of these manipulations again constitutes an “informative intervention,” since at every crucial stage ribozyme engineers select some options or possible states and exclude others. By using their knowledge of the requirements of polymerase function to guide their search and selection process, ribozyme engineers also impart what Robert Marks calls “active information” with each iteration of replication. Thus, ribozyme-engineering experiments demonstrate the power—if not, again, the need for—intelligence to produce information—in this case, the information necessary to enhance the function of RNA enzymes.

Intelligence plays even more obvious roles in ribozyme experiments exemplifying the rational-design approach. In one such experiment in 2002,investigators claimed to have produced a self-replicating RNA molecule, though upon close inspection, not an actual RNA polymerase. Instead, using the familiar mechanism of complementary base pairing, the researchers found that they could get a ribozyme ligase to close the gap between two single-stranded pieces of RNA once the strands had bonded to the longer complementary RNA strand provided by the ribozyme. Yet to get the ribozyme to copy itself, even in this rather trivial sense, the scientists themselves had to provide the two complementary sequence-specific strands of RNA.
In other words, the scientists themselves solved the specified-information problem by sequencing two RNA strands to match the complementary sites on a longer piece of RNA.

Certainly, the familiar mechanism of hydrogen bonding ensured that the strands would bind to the correct section on their complements, at least if they didn’t fold up on themselves or bind to other molecules first. But the specific sequence—the information—that allowed this bonding to occur was provided by intelligent agents.

In other words, to generate even this trivial form of self-replication (in which a single molecule, not a system of different kinds of molecules, makes a complement of itself), intelligent agents had to provide the critical sequence-specific information. Thus, ribozyme engineering—whether exemplifying “irrational” or “rational” design procedures—also demonstrates the causal adequacy of intelligent design.

Credit: Signature in the Cell
 
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Loudmouth

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i am not sure what fact are you basing on making claims such as ''this is completely false''

"Molecular biologists have failed to find any chemical interaction between codons on mRNA similarly in the anticodons on tRNA and the amino acids on the acceptor arm of tRNA which are corresponded by codons."--Zlatanara

This is shown completely false by . . .

"Both classes of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are multidomain proteins. In a typical scenario, an aaRS consists of a catalytic domain (where both the above reactions take place) and an anticodon binding domain (which interacts mostly with the anticodon region of the tRNA and ensures binding of the correct tRNA to the amino acid)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminoacyl_tRNA_synthetase

The aaRS/tRNA complex has direct interaction between the anticodon and the amino acid.

Conscious intelligence plays the same essential role in ribozyme engineering. Recall that ribozyme engineers attempt to enhance the capacity of RNA catalysts in order to demonstrate the plausibility of the RNA world.

The RNA enzymes that came about through random sequences were not consciously or intelligently engineered.

So what supplies this gap in ribozyme engineering experiments? What causes a molecule possessing merely possible indicators of a future selectable function to be preserved? The investigators themselves—the ribozyme engineers. The ribozyme engineers have the foresight to see that ligase capacity, in conjunction with the other capacities of true polymerases, might enable self-replication to proceed. So they select molecules with slightly enhanced ligase capacity. Then they preserve and optimize these molecules. They “enrich by repeated selection and amplification”

We always hear that abiogenesis can't be true because it can't be replicated in the lab. Now we find out that if it is replicated in the lab it still won't be accepted as evidence because it happened in a lab. That doesn't make much sense.

In the most successful ribozyme engineering experiments, the investigators help their ligases along in other ways.

I am guessing that no matter how many random sequences have function, it won't matter. Am I right?

Certainly, the familiar mechanism of hydrogen bonding ensured that the strands would bind to the correct section on their complements, at least if they didn’t fold up on themselves or bind to other molecules first. But the specific sequence—the information—that allowed this bonding to occur was provided by intelligent agents.

Binding of complementary DNA does not require an intelligence. It is entirely chemical and physical.
 
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Davian

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This question is irrelevant to the discussion
Not at all. I am simply asking what other baggage comes along with your god-of-the-gaps proposition.
anyhow, if you want to know what God is for me? look at my profile picture that's what God is for me :)
I see a picture of a tunnel. I don't get much from that.
Also just to ad a list of things i achieved after believing in God (indeed people can achieve all these without God, but also can achieve with God:) )

*Faith helped me quit drugs
*Faith helped me find happiness even when every materialistic goals went down
*Faith made life more interesting and special
A belief in a god does not require an actual god. I do not dispute any comforts you may get from those beliefs.
So the question you asked about ''what God does for me'' is very personal, this is why i want to keep this discussion to science,
You abandoned that position at your first mention of "God".
when i asked you about RNA and DNA which have no interaction between amino acid and nucleotide codon, this is not against science it is a serious question that i am looking answers for.
You have me confused with someone else.
Have i come here and preached that God is the only answer to everything? No, God is the answer to many things but so is Science.

If i was sick i should see a doctor and take the right medicine (instead of crying to God at home), but in addition i can pray to God to keep my spirit uplifted in the struggle. Perfect cure for disease is not just the chemical medicine, but a combination of a strong mind and good medicine. God plays the role in my strong mind, science plays the role in my good medicines.

Sorry if my explanation was confusing :) i respect your way of life hope you do the same to me
Not confusing, but vapid. As I said, I am simply asking what other baggage comes along with your god-of-the-gaps proposition. Once you believe that you have filled in the gaps in our understanding of the emergence of RNA, are we done with your god? Or do we move on to alleged global floods, a literal Adam and Eve, dinosaurs living with humans, source of morality, and so on?
 
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Zlatanara

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"Molecular biologists have failed to find any chemical interaction between codons on mRNA similarly in the anticodons on tRNA and the amino acids on the acceptor arm of tRNA which are corresponded by codons."--Zlatanara

This is shown completely false by . . .

"Both classes of aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases are multidomain proteins. In a typical scenario, an aaRS consists of a catalytic domain (where both the above reactions take place) and an anticodon binding domain (which interacts mostly with the anticodon region of the tRNA and ensures binding of the correct tRNA to the amino acid)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminoacyl_tRNA_synthetase

The aaRS/tRNA complex has direct interaction between the anticodon and the amino acid.



The RNA enzymes that came about through random sequences were not consciously or intelligently engineered.



We always hear that abiogenesis can't be true because it can't be replicated in the lab. Now we find out that if it is replicated in the lab it still won't be accepted as evidence because it happened in a lab. That doesn't make much sense.



I am guessing that no matter how many random sequences have function, it won't matter. Am I right?



Binding of complementary DNA does not require an intelligence. It is entirely chemical and physical.
wait did your wikipedia source deal with acceptor arm of tRNA, The acceptor stem may contain non-Watson-Crick base pairs

http://what-when-how.com/molecular-biology/acceptor-stem-molecular-biology/

well i never said it wont be accepted because it was not in a lab, all i would ask is who worked as the lab assistant in the prebiotic soup? also how can the lab assume the prebiotic soup conditions?

Seems the New-Darwinist cannot understand the difference between a lab assisted product and a non lab assisted product.

Just tell me in simple analogy, is it possible for a DVD to create a DVD player by itself? are you trying to say RNA coded the DNA? i am really not clear with your wiki sources and cherry picking responds to be honest

scientists are falling back to pre-RNA worlds that don't form the basis of life in the real world of biology, and are thereby much harder to define, involving "threose nucleic acid" (TNA) or "phosphoramidate DNA." (this is not the basic phosphate)These have not been demonstrated to form under prebiotic conditions.

If we were not talking about a prebiotic condition, then indeed something like Joyce experiment could be considered here

how did natural selection exist before the first cell originated?

The protein-based enzymes involved in translation perform multiple functions. Ribozymes, however typically can perform only “one subfunction of the several coordinated functions that a corresponded enzyme can perform.” “They cannot perform the entire range of necessary functions, nor can they do so with the specificity needed to execute the many sequentially coordinated reactions that occur during translation.” RNA cannot catalyze the suite of enzyme functions nor the coordinated functions that need to be preformed by an operable translation and coding system.

The RNA world doesn’t explain the origin of genetic information. In general the RNA world does not attempt to explain the origin of genetic information, since “the RNA world was proposed not as an explanation for the origin of biological information, but as an explanation for the origin of the interdependence of nucleic acids and protein in the cell’s information-processing system

Ribozyme engineering does not simulate undirected chemical evolution. “Ribozyme-engineering experiments typically… try to generate either more efficient versions of existing ribozymes or altogether new ribozymes capable of performing some of the … functions of proteins.” The engineers of this field “tend to overlook the role that their own intelligence has played in enhancing the functional capabilities of their RNA catalysts
 
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Loudmouth

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wait did your wikipedia source deal with acceptor arm of tRNA, The acceptor stem may contain non-Watson-Crick base pairs

http://what-when-how.com/molecular-biology/acceptor-stem-molecular-biology/

The aaRS binds to the anticodon and its active site catalyzes a chemical reaction at the acceptor stem. The aaRS is the protein responsible for attaching the amino acid to the acceptor stem. This whole process occurs without intelligent guiding and entirely through chemical and physical processes.

well i never said it wont be accepted because it was not in a lab, all i would ask his who worked as the lab assistant in the prebiotic soup? also how can the lab assume the prebiotic soup conditions?

IOW, you will never accept the lab experiments because they happen in a lab.

Just tell me in simple analogy, is it possible for a DVD to create a DVD player by itself? are you trying to say RNA coded the DNA? i am really not clear with your wiki sources and cherry picking responds to be honest

It is possible for random RNA sequences to have function which you defined as information. This proves that information can arise from random processes and do not require a pre-existing genetic system.

scientists are falling back to pre-RNA worlds that don't form the basis of life in the real world of biology, and are thereby much harder to define, involving "threose nucleic acid" (TNA) or "phosphoramidate DNA." (this is not the basic phosphate)These have not been demonstrated to form under prebiotic conditions.

We aren't even talking about prebiotic conditions. We are talking about biotic conditions, how evolution produces information. We are also talking about how DNA, RNA, and protein interact within life.

how did natural selection exist before the first cell originated?

Obviously, it didn't. Therefore, if we are comparing intelligent design to natural selection then we are talking about after the first cell. We are talking about evolution, not abiogenesis.
 
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Zlatanara

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Not at all. I am simply asking what other baggage comes along with your god-of-the-gaps proposition.

I see a picture of a tunnel. I don't get much from that.

A belief in a god does not require an actual god. I do not dispute any comforts you may get from those beliefs.

You abandoned that position at your first mention of "God".

You have me confused with someone else.

Not confusing, but vapid. As I said, I am simply asking what other baggage comes along with your god-of-the-gaps proposition. Once you believe that you have filled in the gaps in our understanding of the emergence of RNA, are we done with your god? Or do we move on to alleged global floods, a literal Adam and Eve, dinosaurs living with humans, source of morality, and so on?

Well why cant God pick homo sapiens for Adam and Eve? Why cant God create dinosaurs or anything he like?
 
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Zlatanara

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The aaRS binds to the anticodon and its active site catalyzes a chemical reaction at the acceptor stem. The aaRS is the protein responsible for attaching the amino acid to the acceptor stem. This whole process occurs without intelligent guiding and entirely through chemical and physical processes.



IOW, you will never accept the lab experiments because they happen in a lab.



It is possible for random RNA sequences to have function which you defined as information. This proves that information can arise from random processes and do not require a pre-existing genetic system.



We aren't even talking about prebiotic conditions. We are talking about biotic conditions, how evolution produces information. We are also talking about how DNA, RNA, and protein interact within life.



Obviously, it didn't. Therefore, if we are comparing intelligent design to natural selection then we are talking about after the first cell. We are talking about evolution, not abiogenesis.

Well Lab experiments actually supports my hypothesis than yours because it shows a guidance or selected cause before things originated. Anyhow nothing can confirm if the conditions in Labs are the same as the prebiotic soup.

Indeed we were and are talking about prebiotic condition

If natural selection did not exist in the prebiotic soup, then in your opinion how did the first cell originate? A least complex living cell that even qualifies for self organization would require several hundreds of proteins and amino acids with specifies also RNA and DNA as blueprints to pass or transmit the gene.
 
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