• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


  • Total voters
    97
Status
Not open for further replies.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,264
✟584,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
In your opinion, maybe. But not in the Catholic Church, and we can prove it, even if you disagree with that proof.
I know that denominational loyalty is #1 with you. I count the above as 'just talk.'

It's not a popularity contest, dude.
I get the idea that, with you, it is.

Always talking as though tricky doctrinal issues are settled by whose church is said to be the oldest (whether or not it is), largest, most given to mystery, etc. is very much what you turn to. That's not possible for a Christian who believes that the word of God is unequalled in authority.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fireinfolding
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I know that denominational loyalty is #1 with you. I count the above as 'just talk.'
Has nothing to do with loyalty, and I don't belong to any denomination. Denominations are anti-Biblical. Christ instituted one Church.
I get the idea that, with you, it is.
Your ideas don't surprise me, they're often wrong.
Always talking as though tricky doctrinal issues are settled by whose church is said to be the oldest (whether or not it is), largest, most given to mystery, etc. is very much what you turn to. That's not possible for a Christian who believes that the word of God is unequalled in authority.
Actually, I never argue from that point, although it's often true that the ancient Church settled doctrinal issues. It's not about largest or most mystical, either.
By the way, I believe that the word of God is unequalled in authority. And that's exactly what the Catholic Church teaches, too. What you and I seem to disagree on is what constitutes the Word of God. Catholics believe it's Scripture and Tradition guided by the Magisterium (which is guided by the Holy Spirit). You believe it's all in the book.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,264
✟584,012.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Has nothing to do with loyalty, and I don't belong to any denomination.

Let's be serious. You cite your denomination in almost every post.

There are people here who focus on the issues themselves and whose denominational preferences would be virtually unknowable if it were not for a very occasional hint or because of that "faith?" line on the personal profile. Not you. And not almost every other Roman Catholic here.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Let's be serious. You cite your denomination in almost every post.
I never cite any denomination.
There are people here who focus on the issues themselves and whose denominational preferences would be virtually unknowable if it were not for a very occasional hint or because of that "faith?" line on the personal profile. Not you. And not almost every other Roman Catholic here.
I cannot talk about an issue without taking my faith into account. That's why Pope Francis gets under people's skin, because they want him to 'stick to the faith'. But everything is integrated in my faith. That's why it's ok for the pope to tell me I need to do a better job with conservation of earth's resources...
The only issue I'm here to focus on is what the Church actually teaches, as opposed to what people, Catholics or not, think that the Church teaches. For example, this thread is about Sola Scriptura, and I'm here defending the Church's belief that the word of God is not limited to what's in the Bible, which is the belief of the Catholic Church.
It's not about opinion, or what I think individually. If I'm presenting my opinion, that's worth as much as yours, or anyone else's, which is not much. If I'm representing what the Catholic Church teaches, which is what's important to me, then it's worth a lot, to me. I don't care that there's 1.2 Billion Catholics, many, even most of them, don't know what the Church teaches. I try to discern what the Church tells me, why it does so, and try to live it the best I know how.
Sorry you don't appreciate it.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The question is "How do you know it's not inspired by God?" What, about the book, tells you?

Numerics is Biblical...how?


"We must assume that a Power higher than man guided the writers in such a way, whether they knew it or not, they did it and the Great God inspired them to do it''.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's not there. There's nothing in the Bible that says that any book we hold as Canonical belongs there. The Canon of Scripture is a "tradition of men". Which is why man-made traditions are not a bad thing.

Not diminishing the importance of the Bible AT ALL. Not in any way, shape or form. smh.


You made the importance of the extra books to be included in the 66 book bible. The works of Dr Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. Dr Panin once challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the New York Sun newspaper Nov 9, 1899. He dared them to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts. Four made lame excuses. The rest were silent.

Dr Panin issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world asking for a natural explanation or rebuttal of the facts. Not a single person accepted.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You, using numerics to justify the books of the Bible, calling Catholics "fringe"? That's the pot calling the kettle black...
Prove your assertion.
I'm sure the Early Church Fathers used numerics, theomatics, etc to conjure up what should and what should not be Canonical.
Who's "we"?

Who cares about proving our faith mathematically, other than being able to show that God exists using physics? Theomatics can never be proven. It's not up to me to disprove something that doesn't exist.

Dr Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalise the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Has nothing to do with loyalty, and I don't belong to any denomination. Denominations are anti-Biblical. Christ instituted one Church.
Your ideas don't surprise me, they're often wrong.
Actually, I never argue from that point, although it's often true that the ancient Church settled doctrinal issues. It's not about largest or most mystical, either.
By the way, I believe that the word of God is unequalled in authority. And that's exactly what the Catholic Church teaches, too. What you and I seem to disagree on is what constitutes the Word of God. Catholics believe it's Scripture and Tradition guided by the Magisterium (which is guided by the Holy Spirit). You believe it's all in the book.
Christ instituted one universal Catholic church and that includes the Protestants.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The doctrine of the divine authority of the Scriptures has always been fully sustained by the proofs from fulfilled prophecy, from the inexhaustible depths of truth revealed, from its matchless power over the lives of men, from its indestructibility and from the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. However, some have been won to wave these lines of evidence aside as unscientific.

Dr. Panin has submitted conclusive scientific proof that the Bible could not have been produced by the unaided human mind. This proof is found in the amazing numeric phenomena in the very structure of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Dr. Panin demonstrated, either that every writer of Scripture was an unparalleled literary and mathematical genius, or that he wrote as he was moved by the Holy Ghost. Prof. John C. Banks, a worthy successor of Dr. Panin, has been offering numeric evidence to the same proposition.

Panin laid his discoveries before the readers of a New York paper, copies of which were sent to leading skeptical educators and scientists with a challenge they disprove, if

possible, the phenomena to which he had called attention. Since that time many other learned skeptics have been confronted with the same evidence, and not one has been able to discredit it. Some challenged him to find the same mathematical structure in Hebrew and Greek classics outside of the Bible. Panin, therefore, gave much time to the examination of other writings failing to find such phenomena. No such features were found in the seven books added by the Roman Catholic Church to their Old Testament.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
"We must assume that a Power higher than man guided the writers in such a way, whether they knew it or not, they did it and the Great God inspired them to do it''.
Yeah, so? That doesn't speak to the Biblical-ness of Maccabees, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You made the importance of the extra books to be included in the 66 book bible. The works of Dr Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. Dr Panin once challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the New York Sun newspaper Nov 9, 1899. He dared them to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts. Four made lame excuses. The rest were silent.

Dr Panin issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world asking for a natural explanation or rebuttal of the facts. Not a single person accepted.
I'll accept the higher authority, the Church instituted by Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Dr Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalise the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this.
God inspired it. Man wrote it. The end.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Christ instituted one universal Catholic church and that includes the Protestants.
I never excluded Protestants. But they tend to exclude themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The doctrine of the divine authority of the Scriptures has always been fully sustained by the proofs from fulfilled prophecy, from the inexhaustible depths of truth revealed, from its matchless power over the lives of men, from its indestructibility and from the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. However, some have been won to wave these lines of evidence aside as unscientific.

Dr. Panin has submitted conclusive scientific proof that the Bible could not have been produced by the unaided human mind. This proof is found in the amazing numeric phenomena in the very structure of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Dr. Panin demonstrated, either that every writer of Scripture was an unparalleled literary and mathematical genius, or that he wrote as he was moved by the Holy Ghost. Prof. John C. Banks, a worthy successor of Dr. Panin, has been offering numeric evidence to the same proposition.

Panin laid his discoveries before the readers of a New York paper, copies of which were sent to leading skeptical educators and scientists with a challenge they disprove, if

possible, the phenomena to which he had called attention. Since that time many other learned skeptics have been confronted with the same evidence, and not one has been able to discredit it. Some challenged him to find the same mathematical structure in Hebrew and Greek classics outside of the Bible. Panin, therefore, gave much time to the examination of other writings failing to find such phenomena. No such features were found in the seven books added by the Roman Catholic Church to their Old Testament.
I don't know that anyone thinks that the Bible was written by men unaided. But I wonder why we should believe someone 1800 years after Christ, coming up with some new theory of how it was written.
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yeah, so? That doesn't speak to the Biblical-ness of Maccabees, etc.
Sure it does. If the 66 books were completed by God then the holy spirit moved the men to remove your extra books. If the Catholics say the extras were inspired by God and keep them in the bible then the holy spirit isn't with the RCC. It turned into just another denomination but I'm not allow to say its a c..
Sorry to tell you guys the bad news
 
Upvote 0

tulipbee

Worker of the Hive
Apr 27, 2006
2,835
297
✟25,849.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I don't know that anyone thinks that the Bible was written by men unaided. But I wonder why we should believe someone 1800 years after Christ, coming up with some new theory of how it was written.
Cause the devil in in your denomination
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Sure it does. If the 66 books were completed by God then the holy spirit moved the men to remove your extra books. If the Catholics say the extras were inspired by God and keep them in the bible then the holy spirit isn't with the RCC. It turned into just another denomination but I'm not allow to say its a c..
Sorry to tell you guys the bad news
Who's to say that, if Protestants say the "extras" aren't inspired by God and removing them from the Bible, then the Holy Spirit isn't with them? That's just it. Christ gave the apostles authority to bind and loose, and that authority was passed on to their disciples. It's obvious to me who's the c.. Bad news indeed.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You guys added the uninspired books. If you remove them, we'll know the holy spirit might be with you.
That's not how it works, buster. The Catholic Church proceeded from Christ, had the authority to declare what's Biblical, and did so, then you guys came along 1400 years later and removed Biblical books. Those books contain references to things Jesus actually did, and actually approved of. What is your proof that Maccabees isn't Canonical? You've given none that's authoritative, except to you.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.