Can 'Christians' be members of SECRET societies?

[Albion]

So you are saying, there's always a chance, it will be bad.

Of course there's a chance. If you joined a Secret Society that engaged in clandestine murders or blackmail, it would obviously be contrary to Christian morality, all else aside. But that doesn't mean every Secret Society is in that category.

So why even bother? Do we lose anything by NOT joining any of these highly ritualized groups?? We lose nothing!

Once again, I'd say it depends on what the Secret Society is all about or what it does. You don't have to join one, that's true, but by the same token I can't say that there might not be a reason to join one that doesn't transgress anything Christian. Maybe a person simply likes ceremony. Or fellowship. Or it might be a Christian Secret Society dedicated to prayer and nothing but prayer, like a group of monks. I don't have any one in mind but I'm just saying.

So what about Freemason's charitable initiatives?

Freemasonry is not a Secret Society.

What else is left? The answer is clearly vanity.

I don't accept that guess for a moment.

And finally, the answer is NO! No to all ritualistic groups, which clearly includes secret societies, brotherhoods, fraternities, etc, which clearly includes Freemasonry.

Well, once again, you're off topic. Unless we discuss actual Secret Societies, there's no possibility of deciding if belonging to a Secret Society automatically and always conflicts with one's Christian faith.

 

[timewerx]

Of course there's a chance. If you joined a Secret Society that engaged in clandestine murders or blackmail, it would obviously be contrary to Christian morality, all else aside. But that doesn't mean every Secret Society is in that category.

Obviously, you don't have to be a murderer or a blackmailer or anything that bad or worse to be evil.

Freemasonry is not a Secret Society.

It seems they used to be and they have the basic ingredients of one. They only revealed some of their secrets to defend themselves against conspiracy theories involving them.

Well, once again, you're off topic. Unless we discuss actual Secret Societies

A Christian to be unrelenting in the defense of their org despite undeniable conflicts in scriptures, well, there has to be some secret going on!

It is most surely an Occult manifestation going on. I bet you don't even have that uneasy feeling this being discussed. I know just a little of the Occult but nearly got possessed. In case you do not believe such horrific things. But to those who still have some sense left, it's not yet too late to leave.... Hopefully...

 

[Albion]

Obviously, you don't have to be a murderer or a blackmailer or anything that bad or worse to be evil.

Those were examples.

The point was that belonging to a Secret Society would undeniably be wrong for a Christian IF the doings of that society were evil in themselves.

It seems they used to be and they have the basic ingredients of one. They only revealed some of their secrets to defend themselves against conspiracy theories involving them.

"They" aren't a Secret Society, and your statement here about defending themselves is in error. The only secrets are handshakes and passwords designed to be able to identify one member to another, usually when visitations take place. Obviously, a "Secret Society" has to be secret and have a significant amount of private beliefs, doings, and so on. There's virtually none of that with Masonry. As I have said before, most people know more about Masonry than they do about the doings of the Daughters of the American Revolution or Kiwanis!

It is most surely an Occult manifestation going on.

Despite the use of the words "most surely" you're wrong about that, too.

I know just a little of the Occult

I noticed.

Now...how about we talk about some Secret Societies, for a change? Otherwise, we might as well put this puppy to bed.

 

[Imagican]

Once again, Christ is NOT allowed or accepted in Freemasonry. Only that one profess to be a worshiper of "A" God. While I'm sure one professing to be a 'Christian' CAN join Freemasonry, (obviously for we KNOW that there are a number of FAMOUS pastors or evangelists that ARE Freemasons), Christ as the Son of God is not a PART of Freemasonry so far as it's RITUAL or RITES.
I question WHY anyone professing to be a 'Christian' or 'follower of Christ' would join a group of those that are WELCOME to worship Satan or any other God. And if the GLORY of the actions of the Freemasons is directed towards ANY 'god', then it obviously isn't directed AT GOD.
At any rate. Your offering that there is such a thing as a SECRET group that gathers merely to PRAY to The Father of Christ, NOT LIKELY. For there would be NO REASON to keep it a SECRET. As a matter of FACT, the BODY invites ALL that would be followers to be a PART of the BODY. Not SECRET parts for they would inevitably be INEFFECTIVE if their PART in the Body was SECRET.
There was a man and his wife that decided to LIE and keep a secret from the 'church' about the value of some property they sold. They both DIED for the deception. For them, keeping the TRUTH a SECRET obviously wasn't a GOOD thing.
And let me add this: There is NOTHING that I KNOW that I would keep SECRET from someone that I believed it may HELP them if the information was REVEALED. And if my actions as a member of a CLUB or GROUP or GANG were RIGHTEOUS, I would have NOTHING to HIDE. We ONLY HIDE things from people that we DON'T WANT THEM TO KNOW.
Freemasonry IS a 'secret society'. It has ALWAYS BEEN a secret society. So you trying to indicate or actually STATE that it is NOT is deception. Once again, misdirection is an obvious attempt at deception. ALWAYS. I am an EXPERT in the art so you would be hard pressed to try and attempt it without it being OBVIOUS to the practiced eye. You have already admitted that YOU WILL NOT discuss the PARTS of your knowledge that are NOT ALLOWED to be discussed outside of the GROUP. That in an of itself makes it a SECRET SOCIETY. There are VOWS that you have made to keep certain things involved with the GROUP, SECRET.
Regardless. It is CLEAR from what Freemasons DO reveal that they are NOT a 'Christian' organization. Their PURPOSE therefore obviously has NOTHING TO DO with Christ. When we look at the influential people involved, (members of Freemasonry), it is CLEAR that they CATER to each other so far as business and finance and other aspects of their lives. THEY honor one another in a manner that the Bible warns us NOT to do. We are to respect NO MAN because of his STATUS. But it's obvious that Freemasons offer respect and honor to ALL that are members of their GROUP.
Some would say that it's OK to be a functioning part of 'the world'. From my understanding, it is the LAST thing that a follower of Christ would even consider. You can't JUST be a 'follower' ONE day a week and be a TRUE follower. So EVERYTHING in your life must be a PART of following or you are only attempting to fool others and yourself. You can't just be a LITTLE bit of a prostitute. Either you ARE or you aren't. And it's the same as professing to be a follower of Christ. JUST SAYING that you believe in Christ means absolutely NOTHING. It's the FRUIT of your faith that proves what you TRULY follow.
How about this for a question: Do you believe that Christ would be a part of Freemasonry? And if NOT. Why? And in that answer you will find the TRUTH.
Blessings,
MEC

 

[Albion]

Once again, Christ is NOT allowed or accepted in Freemasonry.

That's absolutely untrue. Absolutely.

So if we don't want to discuss organizations that are actual Secret Societies, let's quit this.

 

[americanvet]

There was a man and his wife that decided to LIE and keep a secret from the 'church' about the value of some property they sold. They both DIED for the deception.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.

The issue here is lying. It has nothing to do with keeping secrets.

 

[americanvet]

So EVERYTHING in your life must be a PART of following or you are only attempting to fool others and yourself. You can't just be a LITTLE bit of a prostitute. Either you ARE or you aren't. And it's the same as professing to be a follower of Christ. JUST SAYING that you believe in Christ means absolutely NOTHING. It's the FRUIT of your faith that proves what you TRULY follow.

I agree with this part of your statement 100%. Being the only things you know about me is almost nothing you do not know what my fruit is. It is your belief being a Freemason is not compatible with the Christian faith and I respect your belief. It is my belief being a Freemason is compatible with the Christian faith.

I'm not trying to rude when I say this, but based your post on this topic you do not know what you're talking about regarding Freemasonry. It is NOT a secret society. This is extremely clear based on every grand lodge in worlds standpoint. The ritual has been in print for 100's or years, can be purchased at major book stores, read online for free, to my knowledge all grand lodges in the USA have a website with points of contact, and in some places they have tv commercials NONE of this would make sense for a secret society.

What I'm reading from people's thoughts here is anytime someone keeps something from you that is a secret society. So if I don't tell you my social security number I'm a secret society all by myself or everyone who doesn't tell you their SSN is a member of the same society as me. The standard people in the thread are setting for a secret society is extremely odd and has ZERO basis in Scripture. Being that I've posted numerous Bible verses saying that secrets are fine I also come to the conclusion that those disagreeing with the keeping of secrets must also REJECT Scripture in favor of their own opinion and not God's. If that is indeed the truth of your beliefs then I see no reason to continue have any discussion. So the ball is in your court do you believe the Bible or not. I absolutely do and I am a Freemason and I believe Jesus is OK with that.

 

[americanvet]

Proverbs 11:13 (NLT)

A gossip goes around telling secrets, but those who are trustworthy can keep a confidence.



Proverbs 25:9 (NLT)

When arguing with your neighbor, don’t betray another person’s secret.



1 Sam 16:7 (NLT)

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”



Matt 6:6 (NLT)

But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.



Matt 6:4 (NLT)

Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.



Ecclesiastes 12:14 (NLT) God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad.

 

[Albion]

I guess that settles the question of whether secrecy is antithetical to Christianity. It's not.

 

[timewerx]

That's absolutely untrue. Absolutely.

So if we don't want to discuss organizations that are actual Secret Societies, let's quit this.

Absolutely untrue, absolutely?

You defend Freemasonry like it's a religion and yet you say it's not a religion.

You're not helping their case, you're only helping to ruin their credibility and further establish the fact they are still a secret society for putting up a false image.

 

[Albion]

Absolutely untrue, absolutely?

Yes. No question about it.

You defend Freemasonry like it's a religion and yet you say it's not a religion.

I do not defend Freemasonry "like it's a religion." I defend many people and organizations of all kinds whenever someone attacks them with false information. It's only right to do.

 

[JaapAap]

Absolutely untrue, absolutely?

Of course, otherwise noone would fall for it. They have christian organizations.
https://www.morningstarministries.org/about/questions-and-answers/knights-malta-rick-joyner
Rick Joyner joined the Knights of Malta.
After he visited his friend Bill Johnson you had the glory cloud nonsense in Bethel.
Todd Bentley, also his friend who he counselled went out of his body when he met the same healing angel that William Branham had. Scary stuff and a lot of christians fall for that.

 

[Albion]

Of course, otherwise noone would fall for it. They have christian organizations.
Rick Joyner joined the Knights of Malta.

and the article you linked us to makes explicitly clear that the Knights of Malta he was reporting on are NOT related to Freemasonry, so why would you say "Of course, otherwise..." while quoting something I said about Masonry????????

If you want to introduce us to the Knights of Malta and show that belonging to it is somehow wrong, do that. Don't use some broad brush like this to indict organizations that have no connection to it or any known similarity.

 

[JaapAap]

I've never joined it myself so for me it's all one and the same.
This is from exmasons for Jesus:
http://www.emfj.org/quickly.htm
http://www.emfj.org

 

[Albion]

I've never joined it myself so for me it's all one and the same.

You have no personal knowledge about this...and think "it's all one and the same?"

With that kind of commitment to the subject, I'd recommend that you post on a different topic.

 

[JaapAap]

With that kind of commitment to speaking the truth, I'd recommend that you post on a different subject.

Hahahahaha
A discussion with me is like:
all churches are bad and occult.
Oh yes why so?
Well someone on internet once went to a church and says so.

 

[timewerx]

That's absolutely untrue. Absolutely.

Why there is a huge problem with that statement:

Matthew 5:37
All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’;anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

I do not defend Freemasonry "like it's a religion." I defend many people and organizations of all kinds whenever someone attacks them with false information. It's only right to do.

You defend Freemasonry like they are absolutely correct (and inerrant) in their claims.

Isn't that the same badly worn tune played by religions to defend their beliefs??

But the sad fact is that even religious beliefs can fall in the face of facts such as science. What may be "truth" today might be proven a lie or a false teaching tomorrow...

James 4:14-16
Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.15Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that."16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.…



It is arrogance to claim something will (absolutely) never be false or that will always stay true.....

.....Even airplanes crash even if they're designed NOT to crash!
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[Albion]

Why there is a huge problem with that statement:

Matthew 5:37
All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’;anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

I tried that. And you're still repeating what you said before.

You defend Freemasonry like they are absolutely correct (and inerrant) in their claims.

I stand by what I said. I don't have to entertain the things you make up out of thin air (like this ^) and try to put into my mouth. I also am mindful of the Commandment against bearing false witness. I recommend you think about it before you post more stuff like you've been doing.

 

[timewerx]

I stand by what I said. I don't have to entertain the things you make up out of thin air (like this ^) and try to put into my mouth. I also am mindful of the Commandment against bearing false witness. I recommend you think about it before you post more stuff like you've been doing.

You are refuting a claim against Freemasonry and you are absolutely sure of it.

To be absolutely and confidently sure of something, then the source of your opinion must be quite credible, perhaps from Freemasonry itself, or from your own actual observation/experiences within Freemasonry. You are therefore, defending their beliefs.

If that is just purely your opinion without any actual experiences with Freemasonry then we cannot trust what you say about Freemasonry is absolutely true.

But from what I know regarding publicly available information from Freemasons themselves, you are wrong and MEC is right.Many rituals of Freemasonry are outright prayers and does not address Christ. They have strong overtones of Judaism and rightfully so, the main Freemasonry symbol has a strong resemblance to a Hexagram - the geometric figure popularly found in the Israel flag. And Judaists have a strong animosity towards Christ. So it is not surprising that Christ is not mentioned in the rituals or mentioned as little as possible even if many rituals were copied form the Bible.

I bet they didn't tell you this...... So that qualifies Freemasonry as a secret society I guess....

The power of the Occult lies in secrecy. What you don't know could and most likely harm you, please read:

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. .....

You should not be defending Freemasonry, instead you should be telling people to avoid it. This is not about who's better at debates, this is about what is right and wrong.
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[americanvet]

The power of the Occult lies in secrecy.

God does keep secrets.

I think the concept of secrecy here is subjective. But if we're talking of very limited time frames, I'd say, secrets exist in Christianity.

Proverbs 11:13 (NLT) A gossip goes around telling secrets, but those who are trustworthy can keep a confidence.

Proverbs 25:9 (NLT) When arguing with your neighbor, don’t betray another person’s secret.

1 Sam 16:7 (NLT) But the LORD said to Samuel, “Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Matt 6:6 (NLT) But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

Matt 6:4 (NLT) Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 (NLT) God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad.

If God keeps secrets and the power of the occult lies in secrecy by your logic God is of the occult. That is blasphemous and false. The truth is secrets are a very natural and real part of God's creation.

Parts of the Bible mention of the Jews, Israel, no problems with that. But parts of the Bible which espouses Judaist teachings like many parts of the Old Testament, I avoid, thus, I only read a small part of the Bible.

Based on your own beliefs you do not hold to the normal Christian faith. You reject large portions of the Bible and only rely on a small portion for your beliefs. Ergo you reject the parts you want to. This being the case I reject your opinion and thoughts regarding what is and is not permissible according to God. Your faith is completely outside of orthodox Christianity.

Your statements contradict each other just within the confines of this thread. I ask you to consider you position, repent of this heresy, following the guiding of the Holy Spirit, and resume communion with Christ's church.