Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

You don't understand context and how to reconcile the scriptures together. When you don't you just give part of the picture and part truth and not the whole truth. Jerry Kelso

That's because I am not the one who does it, The Holy Spirit is The One who rightly divides The Word of Truth. He is The one who inspired the words that are written so He should be able to show in the order they should be read and understood.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, there is your problem right there..... When God said it was very good in Gen 1:31 You think He is refering to Adam in The Garden, But He's Not, He is talking about The End of His Works, through The Last Adam, His Son, that's what He's talking about, Not the first.

Just because ch.1 is before ch.2 in your bible, does not mean that you are to understand them that way.
The whole plan of God from beginning to the End is seen in the first ch. through 2:4, And then starts over again.
It is a pattern, that is seen again, and again, and again.....

Adam and the Garden is seen in Gen.1:2 hence the darkness within the first day also,
God speaks the Light/Truth into the world to call and redeem, and then we see division and a lot of it,
through the third day, the wheat and the tares etc. are here also..
Jesus Christ is seen in Gen. 1:14-19 as He was made manifest on this earth coming on the fourth day
Then what He has accomplished is seen multiplying and being fruitful in the fifth day
Up to this point, it's just been the Firstfruits of The Spirit of Christ....But Now....
Let us make............All Mankind, "this is the harvest of the world" in our image and our Likeness....and let them have dominion over....
Then we have those words, God saw EVERYTHING He had made...and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the Sixth day.
Then we have All entered into His Rest, His Works, .......Then The details of that begin to play out in the Garden of the whole chapter 1--again, and again, giving more and more details along the way.

This is a very short explanation, but it is Truth, and it is The Solid foundation for all of scripture.

Yes, I got that many many pages ago. What I have yet to get from anyone supporting UR is how one sees God creating evil and still see God as All Good.

 

[2KnowHim]

Yes, I got that many many pages ago. What I have yet to get from anyone supporting UR is how one sees God creating evil and still see God as All Good.

No, you don't get that, if you did you would not still be asking us that question.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So what do you do with this scripture,? Just throw it out because you can't believe a Good God could do these things.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Hardly, the position one takes on any given verse, should not only be in context but should also be in align with everything else one holds to be revealed from God, and as such true. Whatever we see this ancient Hebrew verse from a prophet of God to mean then cannot conflict with the idea that God is All Good. In this case there are any number of sound theological references Catholic and Protestant that would explain the meaning of the verse without insult to what orthodox Christians hold to be true about God. If you would like to discuss whether God creates evil I have started a thread in Controversial Theology for that purpose.

And as you repeatedly claim for the sake of UR that God created evil, as in made both Satan the way he is now and Adam imperfect, please answer how God can be seen as All Good if you think He created that kind of evil - opposed to what He is, All Good.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No, you don't get that, if you did you would not still be asking us that question.

No, all you did was claim a verse in Isaiah proves God to you that God created evil. I did not ask you if it was true that God created evil, I asked how you see God being ALL Good when you claim it is true that He made both Satan and Adam the way we are now, with what the orthodox call a fallen nature (which requires a prior, better state to fall from). Instead of a fallen state apparently many UR supporters here would call the way Satan and mankind are, as simply bad "seed" that God created and intends to help grow into something better one day. Which is just another way of saying as you did repeatedly that God created the evil that we know exists by the hand of some angels and all mankind.

 

[anonymouswho]

I do find it interesting/odd that in your defense of your presentation of the Creation story (which I agree with the theologians saying there are actually two distinct and independent stories that have been passed down) that you link an article which defends using Hebrew perfect/imperfect tense in defending specific understandings of various verses throughout the Bible. Without needing to agree with any of those understandings, I noticed that article cites many verses where it is claimed this perfect/imperfect tense is useful to know, but that writer skips over the very example (the Creation story) you wish to apply that understanding to. Yes, that is odd.

Hello my friend. I don't really see how this is "odd". This is just an easy to read article about the perfect/imperfect aspect of Hebrew. This can be applied to any verb, and it is the reason this is translated "Let us make", instead of "and they made". These three words come from the single Hebrew word נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה anah, and this word literally means "to do", or "accomplish". It is in the perfect aspect na·‘ă·śeh. If you click on the transliteration, it will show you how this form is translated "will do" almost every other time it is written.

To carry on about the Creation story let's go here:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...d-adam-and-eve-know-right-from-wrong.7902833/

To carry on about God creating evil go here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/did-god-create-evil.7902837/

If it is okay with you, I'd rather not leave this thread and have to keep up with several others. I don't see how any of these things are off topic. If the belief in eternal torment has its foundation in what is called "free will" or "the fall", and this foundation is incorrect, then these things must be addressed. This is the very reason you brought this up in the first place. You thought that our disbelief in free will contradicted "the fall". We have simply been showing you why it doesn't (because there was no "fall"), by which you brought up the Problem of Evil in regards to the All Good God. So I would like to explain why this is not a contradiction. And I would like to do that here if that is okay. You said so yourself that all of these things are connected:

I did not bring up the creation story here in this UR thread to debate the meaning of it. It only came up with my trying to demonstrate how the defense of the UR position frequently undermines, diminishes, cast doubt upon or even opposes/refutes, many other basic and fundamental truths of our Christian faith. Specifically in this case, that God is All Good, which another UR defender here has at least cast doubt on; and second why God made us - which goes to our understanding of the creation story and the Fall of mankind (in Adam's act) which goes to why we need a redeemer/Savoir from that Fall.

So if all of this is relevant, then I would like to go ahead and explain this, because I think it is very important that we believe the Scriptures rather than our own understanding.

Consider this scenario. Say I give a homeless man $20. This is a good thing and I have done no evil. Let's say this Causes the man to buy some food to save his starving family. This is good, and I think we can all agree that this is exactly how God works.

Now let's say I give a homeless man $20. This is a good thing and I've done no Evil. This Causes the man to go to a liquor store and pick up a bottle of whiskey, while his family goes without. This is Evil. I was the Cause (because without me it would have never occured) of this Evil act, but I committed no Evil. Can we agree that God works this way as well as the other?

That's my understanding of this, because I have to find a way to understand it. To deny it is to deny Scripture, and Scripture is explicitly clear that God creates Evil.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (רָ֑ע rah:evil): I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The Hebrew translated Evil in this verse is רָ֑ע rah, and rah means Evil. As in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil רָ֑ע.
There are several other verses that teach us this:

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Amos 3:6 (these are all examples of Cause and Effect. In the last one, evil is the Effect and God is the Cause)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4 (did God not create the wicked for Himself?)

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezekiel 14:9 (Who deceives the prophet? Who destroys the prophet after He deceives them?)

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20

God gave Joseph the dreams. God knew that Joseph would run his mouth about them. God knew this would make the brothers jealous. God knew that this would eventually lead to Joseph dying in Egypt, so that the generations after him would be in bondage to Egypt, so God could show His power to the Israelites. God knows everything.

There is no fault here my friend. God creates Evil, and the Scriptures testify to this. I would like to ask you a question, and maybe this will help us get back to the original topic. If God cannot create evil, then how is it that He has supposedly created an eternal torture chamber that 90% of the world is going to? What is Good about this? Nothing is learned from eternal torture. Nothing is gained.

Also, let's pretend the impossible and say that God didn't not know with 100% certainty that Adam would transgress. Adam had a choice, and there was a 50/50 chance that he would not eat the fruit. Does this mean that God created the universe, knowing that there was a very good chance He would eventually have to create an eternal torture chamber to send His creation, and yet He still went through with it? The God that created atoms and molecules and stars and galaxies: did this God create mankind with the sole purpose of giving them a "choice" to eat a fruit or not? And because they ate, the whole world will be tormented for trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of eternal years? Also, why is His Son supposed to be right there in hell with mankind, watching them be tormented for eternity?

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Revelation 14:10

Eternal Hell is impossible my friend. Free will is impossible. "Infinite possibilities" is impossible. If God can see infinite possibilities, then how can He be sure of anything?

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:9

Im sorry, but infinite possibilities makes no sense whatsoever towards the Sovereign God. If I have a choice between steak or chicken, then in my own limited mind I can be certain that I'm going to choose one of them. But according to infinite possibilities, God doesn't know which I'll choose, and He even sees trillions of possibilities that I might not even make it to the first bite. This makes God less certain than man, because He sees more possibilities than we do.

That's all for now. If you'd like, we can go over men that thought they had free will in Scripture. God has a lot to say about this particular subject. He let's us know that the inhabitants of the world are reputed as nothing, and He will do all His pleasure:

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

Trust God my friend. Believe what He says because He does not lie. He will get absolutely everything He wants, because He is the only True God. If you like fallen angels, free will, eternal torture, and any other vain imaginations, then all of the other religions offer these things. But as far as the Scriptures go, there is none else like of God:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Is there a mistranlation in this verse? Are we misinterpreting this passage? Or is the Most High God able to do whatever He wants because He is in complete control of everything?

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello my friend. I don't really see how this is "odd". This is just an easy to read article about the perfect/imperfect aspect of Hebrew. This can be applied to any verb, and it is the reason this is translated "Let us make", instead of "and they made". These three words come from the single Hebrew word נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה anah, and this word literally means "to do", or "accomplish". It is in the perfect aspect na·‘ă·śeh. If you click on the transliteration, it will show you how this form is translated "will do" almost every other time it is written.





If it is okay with you, I'd rather not leave this thread and have to keep up with several others. I don't see how any of these things are off topic. If the belief in eternal torment has its foundation in what is called "free will" or "the fall", and this foundation is incorrect, then these things must be addressed. This is the very reason you brought this up in the first place. You thought that our disbelief in free will contradicted "the fall". We have simply been showing you why it doesn't (because there was no "fall"), by which you brought up the Problem of Evil in regards to the All Good God. So I would like to explain why this is not a contradiction. And I would like to do that here if that is okay. You said so yourself that all of these things are connected:



So if all of this is relevant, then I would like to go ahead and explain this, because I think it is very important that we believe the Scriptures rather than our own understanding.

Consider this scenario. Say I give a homeless man $20. This is a good thing and I have done no evil. Let's say this Causes the man to buy some food to save his starving family. This is good, and I think we can all agree that this is exactly how God works.

Now let's say I give a homeless man $20. This is a good thing and I've done no Evil. This Causes the man to go to a liquor store and pick up a bottle of whiskey, while his family goes without. This is Evil. I was the Cause (because without me it would have never occured) of this Evil act, but I committed no Evil. Can we agree that God works this way as well as the other?

That's my understanding of this, because I have to find a way to understand it. To deny it is to deny Scripture, and Scripture is explicitly clear that God creates Evil.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (רָ֑ע rah:evil): I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

The Hebrew translated Evil in this verse is רָ֑ע rah, and rah means Evil. As in the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil רָ֑ע.
There are several other verses that teach us this:

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Will a lion roar in the forest, when he hath no prey? will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?
Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Amos 3:6 (these are all examples of Cause and Effect. In the last one, evil is the Effect and God is the Cause)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4 (did God not create the wicked for Himself?)

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." Ezekiel 14:9 (Who deceives the prophet? Who destroys the prophet after He deceives them?)

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20

God gave Joseph the dreams. God knew that Joseph would run his mouth about them. God knew this would make the brothers jealous. God knew that this would eventually lead to Joseph dying in Egypt, so that the generations after him would be in bondage to Egypt, so God could show His power to the Israelites. God knows everything.

There is no fault here my friend. God creates Evil, and the Scriptures testify to this. I would like to ask you a question, and maybe this will help us get back to the original topic. If God cannot create evil, then how is it that He has supposedly created an eternal torture chamber that 90% of the world is going to? What is Good about this? Nothing is learned from eternal torture. Nothing is gained.

Also, let's pretend the impossible and say that God didn't not know with 100% certainty that Adam would transgress. Adam had a choice, and there was a 50/50 chance that he would not eat the fruit. Does this mean that God created the universe, knowing that there was a very good chance He would eventually have to create an eternal torture chamber to send His creation, and yet He still went through with it? The God that created atoms and molecules and stars and galaxies: did this God create mankind with the sole purpose of giving them a "choice" to eat a fruit or not? And because they ate, the whole world will be tormented for trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of eternal years? Also, why is His Son supposed to be right there in hell with mankind, watching them be tormented for eternity?

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Revelation 14:10

Eternal Hell is impossible my friend. Free will is impossible. "Infinite possibilities" is impossible. If God can see infinite possibilities, then how can He be sure of anything?

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:9

Im sorry, but infinite possibilities makes no sense whatsoever towards the Sovereign God. If I have a choice between steak or chicken, then in my own limited mind I can be certain that I'm going to choose one of them. But according to infinite possibilities, God doesn't know which I'll choose, and He even sees trillions of possibilities that I might not even make it to the first bite. This makes God less certain than man, because He sees more possibilities than we do.

That's all for now. If you'd like, we can go over men that thought they had free will in Scripture. God has a lot to say about this particular subject. He let's us know that the inhabitants of the world are reputed as nothing, and He will do all His pleasure:

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

Trust God my friend. Believe what He says because He does not lie. He will get absolutely everything He wants, because He is the only True God. If you like fallen angels, free will, eternal torture, and any other vain imaginations, then all of the other religions offer these things. But as far as the Scriptures go, there is none else like of God:

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9

Is there a mistranlation in this verse? Are we misinterpreting this passage? Or is the Most High God able to do whatever He wants because He is in complete control of everything?

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

It is odd because a particular rendering of a verse was suggested here as true and required to support (for me to understand) a position and support for that rendering was given by your link to an article written by someone apparently or at least allegedly knowledgeable on the rendering method for me to understand your view of the Creation story, and that individual gave a rather complete and sequential list of examples in the Bible where that rendering in his opinion applies, and that list begins in Genesis but skips right over the first 5 chapters. Am just saying if that writer is assumed to be knowledgeable and this particular rendering of the Creation story actually applicable, it is very odd that he failed to mention it when he created that list.

As CS Lewis once wrote in the Case for Christianity, paraphrasing - there is nothing except free will that makes possible any goodness, joy or love worth having.
full quote:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/437424-god-created-things-which-had-free-will-that-means-creatures

Who wants goodness, joy or love that is forced upon them?
Regardless of what you think of the person, if the king standing there with his henchmen asks do you love me, are you happy here, do you serve me .... what else can you say?

And as I said early and repeatedly in this thread your reply demonstrates that in defense of the UR position once again, in your presentation/defense of it, must negate something most orthodox/traditional Christians hold as a sacred truth - free will.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

me going on with your lengthy reply

Besides attacking free will, you like other UR suppporters here attack that there even was a Fall (or free will). Your homeless man example by your own admission fails because according to you and others that man does not have a free will to choose to do with your money as he pleases. He is either going to do good or do evil but the choice to do either was never really present. IOW according to you the homeless man is not free to both and can only do one of the two possibilities.

So if like God you knew which man you had made that you are giving the money to, then yes the act of giving that bad man the money would be you directly contributing to evil. In your case not knowing, you are only indirectly causing evil But step back and ask why would God make that man if that man only capable of doing evil?
BTW, God can rightly be said to be the first cause of everything that is, for without Him there would indeed be nothing. So while I cannot deny He allows for evil by creating creatures truly free to choose to do good or bad - it does not follow from that that He makes them do bad. Whereas your view requires it, so you have imagined a God you claim to be All Good essentially forcing creatures to work against Himself - do bad.

But more fundamental than this, the claim is God made an intelligent creature less good than He could have, which renders the already repeated purpose for His making Adam pointless without talking about some ideal future state. Combine that thought with your position on free will, and now according to you these intelligent creatures (angels and mankind) have no choice but to achieve that state - we MUST do it. So it cannot be said He made us to love, serve and know Him because you deny from that we were made that way from the very beginning. You could only say God will one day MAKE us all love, serve and know Him - and MAKE us share in His eternal Happiness. So like the earthly king, it does not matter if we don't wanna - we are not really free in that situation - the king makes us.

The reason I wanted to curtail these discussions and move these to another thread is because we could go on and on and never talk about UR again - and the detail of the explanations required to support both sides leads to rather lengthy off topic posts. There are huge books written just on a single facet of these discussions we are attempting to summarize in a bullet.

 

[anonymouswho]

It is odd because a particular rendering of a verse was suggested here as true and required to support (for me to understand) a position and support for that rendering was given by your link to an article written by someone apparently or at least allegedly knowledgeable on the rendering method for me to understand your view of the Creation story, and that individual gave a rather complete and sequential list of examples in the Bible where that rendering in his opinion applies, and that list begins in Genesis but skips right over the first 5 chapters. Am just saying if that writer is assumed to be knowledgeable and this particular rendering of the Creation story actually applicable, it is very odd that he failed to mention it when he created that list.

Well that's fine. I was just showing you how verbs can work in Hebrew. And then I tried to explain it to you, and I showed you how that particular word has been translated. I'm not really sure what else to do, but it doesn't matter anyways.

As CS Lewis once wrote in the Case for Christianity, paraphrasing - there is nothing except free will that makes possible any goodness, joy or love worth having.
full quote:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/437424-god-created-things-which-had-free-will-that-means-creatures

Who wants goodness, joy or love that is forced upon them?
Regardless of what you think of the person, if the king standing there with his henchmen asks do you love me, are you happy here, do you serve me .... what else can you say?

And as I said early and repeatedly in this thread your reply demonstrates that in defense of the UR position once again, in your presentation/defense of it, must negate something most orthodox/traditional Christians hold as a sacred truth - free will.

I'm sorry my friend, I don't care what C.S. Lewis said. I care what the Scriptures say. I have talked to you several times, and you have not left one verse this entire conversation. Free will may be a "sacred truth" to Orthodoxy, but like many things that Orthodoxy teaches, it is unscriptural and I would consider it blasphemy. God says over and over again that He works all things, and mankind is potty in the Potters hands. Free will says that we work all things according to the council of our own will. How can we defend our "free will" over the Sovereignty of God. I dont mean to be so harsh, but for this reason, I'm afraid that "free will" is the god of Orthodoxy, and the True God says:

"Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens." Jeremiah 10:11

Besides attacking free will, you like other UR suppporters here attack that there even was a Fall (or free will). Your homeless man example by your own admission fails because according to you and others that man does not have a free will to choose to do with your money as he pleases. He is either going to do good or do evil but the choice to do either was never really present. IOW according to you the homeless man is not free to both and can only do one of the two possibilities.

So if like God you knew which man you had made that you are giving the money to, then yes the act of giving that bad man the money would be you directly contributing to evil. In your case not knowing, you are only indirectly causing evil But step back and ask why would God make that man if that man only capable of doing evil?
BTW, God can rightly be said to be the first cause of everything that is, for without Him there would indeed be nothing. So while I cannot deny He allows for evil by creating creatures truly free to choose to do good or bad - it does not follow from that that He makes them do bad. Whereas your view requires it, so you have imagined a God you claim to be All Good essentially forcing creatures to work against Himself - do bad.

But more fundamental than this, the claim is God made an intelligent creature less good than He could have, which renders the already repeated purpose for His making Adam pointless without talking about some ideal future state. Combine that thought with your position on free will, and now according to you these intelligent creatures (angels and mankind) have no choice but to achieve that state - we MUST do it. So it cannot be said He made us to love, serve and know Him because you deny from that we were made that way from the very beginning. You could only say God will one day MAKE us all love, serve and know Him - and MAKE us share in His eternal Happiness. So like the earthly king, it does not matter if we don't wanna - we are not really free in that situation - the king makes us.

The reason I wanted to curtail these discussions and move these to another thread is because we could go on and on and never talk about UR again - and the detail of the explanations required to support both sides leads to rather lengthy off topic posts. There are huge books written just on a single facet of these discussions we are attempting to summarize in a bullet.

Free will, infinite possibilities, perfect Adam, the Fall, Lucifer, fallen angel, originally intended, God wants - unfortunately, the Garden was about a choice, God didn't know, God doesn't know, God changed, God tries, it's your choice, man creates evil, ect....not one of these things are Scriptural. I have never seen any of these terms used in Scripture.

God did not create Adam perfect. The Scriptures never say this. If he was perfect, it would be impossible for there to be an imperfection. If you believe Adam was perfect, or Satan was perfect, and then they "fell", then how can we be sure God won't "fall"? How can we trust the promises of God if He doesn't have a clue what we will do?

Yes I can say that God will MAKE us do it:

"Let us make man in our image"

He said He was going to "make" it happen. He didn't make a creature "less good" than He could have. He made a creature exactly the way He wanted that creature to be, and it was perfect for the purpose that God has for mankind.

Please my friend, if you wish to discuss this, we must use the Scriptures. I'm sure C.S. Lewis was a brilliant man in his own mind, but he didn't have a clue what the Scriptures are about. As I've said before, God is Love. You cannot Love without God, because He is Love. Therefore you cannot Love God unless you first have God. And you love God because He loved you first, not because some entity called free will told you to.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well that's fine. I was just showing you how verbs can work in Hebrew. And then I tried to explain it to you, and I showed you how that particular word has been translated. I'm not really sure what else to do, but it doesn't matter anyways.



I'm sorry my friend, I don't care what C.S. Lewis said. I care what the Scriptures say. I have talked to you several times, and you have not left one verse this entire conversation. Free will may be a "sacred truth" to Orthodoxy, but like many things that Orthodoxy teaches, it is unscriptural and I would consider it blasphemy. God says over and over again that He works all things, and mankind is potty in the Potters hands. Free will says that we work all things according to the council of our own will. How can we defend our "free will" over the Sovereignty of God. I dont mean to be so harsh, but for this reason, I'm afraid that "free will" is the god of Orthodoxy, and the True God says:

"Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens." Jeremiah 10:11



Free will, infinite possibilities, perfect Adam, the Fall, Lucifer, fallen angel, originally intended, God wants - unfortunately, the Garden was about a choice, God didn't know, God doesn't know, God changed, God tries, it's your choice, man creates evil, ect....not one of these things are Scriptural. I have never seen any of these terms used in Scripture.

God did not creat?e Adam perfect. The Scriptures never say this. If he was perfect, it would be impossible for there to be an imperfection. If you believe Adam was perfect, or Satan was perfect, and then they "fell", then how can we be sure God won't "fall"? How can we trust the promises of God if He doesn't have a clue what we will do?

Yes I can say that God will MAKE us do it:

"Let us make man in our image"

He said He was going to "make" it happen. He didn't make a creature "less good" than He could have. He made a creature exactly the way He wanted that creature to be, and it was perfect for the purpose that God has for mankind.

Please my friend, if you wish to discuss this, we must use the Scriptures. I'm sure C.S. Lewis was a brilliant man in his own mind, but he didn't have a clue what the Scriptures are about. As I've said before, God is Love. You cannot Love without God, because He is Love. Therefore you cannot Love God unless you first have God. And you love God because He loved you first, not because some entity called free will told you to.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

LOL, punting is always an option I guess.

You claim God made creatures the way He wanted, which is rather silly as no one here would suggest God did something He did not want to do. But that was sort of my point. I would think of a Creator I say is All Good always doing (which means He wanted to do) the very best He could. You align yourself with many UR supporters here to say that God makes creatures that (if at all) do not fully love, serve or want to know Him (imperfect seed), and God wants to eventually make those creatures fully love, serve, and know Him (forced because they have no choice in it - they are not free - no free will you said). That is the picture you have painted - not me. You claim that is what God wanted to do in making mankind.
In that picture, how can it possibly be said that God COULD NOT have made BETTER creatures than that?
What makes it impossible for God to make creatures that would freely choose to love, serve and know Him?
And how does one explain the angels made the same as Satan was originally, that did not get kicked out (since you refuse to call that a "Fall")?

 

[James Is Back]

Sounds like some UR folks are painting God as some cosmic chess player. Let's see:

1.He created A&E to fall so He can redeem man later on through Christ
2.Once Christ dies and is resurrected all man will be saved

Am I getting that right because if that's what some believe I've got news for you. Not only are you so way off base on that belief but it's not Biblical and it paints our Creator as some sort of Divine chess player playing with his creation the way He sees fit.

I'd rather jump on the Mormon bandwagon before I ever jump on that one.

 

[SarahsKnight]

2.Once Christ dies and is resurrected all man will be saved

Am I getting that right because if that's what some believe I've got news for you. Not only are you so way off base on that belief but it's not Biblical and it paints our Creator as some sort of Divine chess player playing with his creation the way He sees fit.

I'd rather jump on the Mormon bandwagon before I ever jump on that one.

Okay, not that I'm a universalist (I feel there are just too many difficulty verses to see it easily, but all the more glory to our God if it is true), but, does it make you mad to think that Christ would eventually save all of mankind? The fact that you say you'd rather jump on the Mormon bandwagon makes it sound like you almost find the thought of universal reconciliation insulting. Besides, it's not like universalists are saying there is no consequence at all for sin and evil. Just because they don't believe that consequence is eternal torment in hell doesn't mean they believe it's cool to go out and do evil and live any way they want, which I believe you have said or implied before earlier in this thread.

 

[anonymouswho]

You claim God made creatures the way He wanted, which is rather silly as no one here would suggest God did something He did not want to do. But that was sort of my point. I would think of a Creator I say is All Good always doing (which means He wanted to do) the very best He could. You align yourself with many UR supporters here to say that God makes creatures that (if at all) do not fully love, serve or want to know Him (imperfect seed), and God wants to eventually make those creatures fully love, serve, and know Him (forced because they have no choice in it - they are not free - no free will you said). That is the picture you have painted - not me. You claim that is what God wanted to do in making mankind.
In that picture, how can it possibly be said that God COULD NOT have made BETTER creatures than that?
What makes it impossible for God to make creatures that would freely choose to love, serve and know Him?
And how does one explain the angels made the same as Satan was originally, that did not get kicked out (since you refuse to call that a "Fall")?

My friend, God doesn't have to force anyone to do anything. He persuades and He causes us to do whatever He wants. Such as it is at Judgement.

When God resurrects the dead, teaches all men righteousness, and shows them how powerful His Love is, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. God is going to Cause every knee to bow and tongue to confess beCause of His Grace. Although there are men that persecute the church (Paul), God is able to bring them to repentance:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4

It is not your own goodness that leads you to repentance. It is not your free will that leads you to repentance. It is the Goodness of God. Do we dare deny Him this boast and take the glory for ourselves?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8

Who gives this gift? God. You claim that you've chosen by your own will, therefore you "deserve" eternal life. That is a boast. You didn't choose anything, because God does the choosing:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" Ephesians 1:4

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16

Many men in Scripture though they had free will. Let's look at a few:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Acts 9:1

Paul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the Church. He was still speaking against them while he was on the road. Paul had no intentions whatsoever of believing in Yeshua.

"And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." Acts 9:3

It took about 30 seconds to convince Paul. And in case Paul thought about backing out, he was blinded so that he had to be led where ever God wanted him to go. Where was Paul's free will?

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me." Luke 22:31

Peter loved Yeshua, and he was ready to die for Him. He even argues with Yeshua in another account. So what happens next?

"And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.
And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
And Peter went out, and wept bitterly." Luke 22:60

Did Peter do this by his own free will? Was it possible that Peter should make our Lord out to be a liar?

"The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee." Daniel 4:30

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:34

Where was Nebuchadnezzar's free will. He believed he had done everything himself, but God showed him who is really in control.

"O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation." Isaiah 10:5

Why is the king of Assyria the rod of God's anger?

"For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped." Isaiah 10:8

What does God think about this?

"Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood." Isaiah 10:15

You see, I claim that God created man exactly the way He wanted them to be, but they were not perfect from within themselves. You claim that God created an entire universe, then put some humans on this habitat planet that He created, but before His creation even reproduced, they already thwarted His will. How does this make Adam and Eve perfect? If they were perfect, then it is impossible that they would be able to have an imperfection. So how did they transgress to begin with?

And please my friend, provide some Scripture. If all of this is true, then survey you have a few Scriptures that say these things.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[James Is Back]

but, does it make you mad to think that Christ would eventually save all of mankind?

What makes me mad is that UR preaches a doctrine that's not Biblical.

The fact that you say you'd rather jump on the Mormon bandwagon makes it sound like you almost find the thought of universal reconciliation insulting.

What I find insulting is when people take the truth and twist it into their own interpretation just because it sounds good.

Besides, it's not like universalists are saying there is no consequence at all for sin and evil. Just because they don't believe that consequence is eternal torment in hell doesn't mean they believe it's cool to go out and do evil and live any way they want, which I believe you have said or implied before earlier in this thread.

Whether or not they teach that it's cool to sin is not is not the point I was making. I made the point that the UR position can lead someone to sin all they want because if all are saved in the end why bother living a Holy life or repent from the sins man commits? Teach an atheist the UR position and they'll think that wow I can party harty and do whatever I want because in the end I'm going to the Kingdom of God regardless.

That's how dangerous the UR doctrine is. They may not teach that it's ok to sin but in the minds of many they'll see the doctrine as living whatever life they want to live because there is no final punishment for the unregenerate sinner.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

My friend, God doesn't have to force anyone to do anything. He persuades and He causes us to do whatever He wants. Such as it is at Judgement.

When God resurrects the dead, teaches all men righteousness, and shows them how powerful His Love is, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. God is going to Cause every knee to bow and tongue to confess beCause of His Grace. Although there are men that persecute the church (Paul), God is able to bring them to repentance:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4

It is not your own goodness that leads you to repentance. It is not your free will that leads you to repentance. It is the Goodness of God. Do we dare deny Him this boast and take the glory for ourselves?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8

Who gives this gift? God. You claim that you've chosen by your own will, therefore you "deserve" eternal life. That is a boast. You didn't choose anything, because God does the choosing:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" Ephesians 1:4

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16

Many men in Scripture though they had free will. Let's look at a few:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." Acts 9:1

Paul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the Church. He was still speaking against them while he was on the road. Paul had no intentions whatsoever of believing in Yeshua.

"And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." Acts 9:3

It took about 30 seconds to convince Paul. And in case Paul thought about backing out, he was blinded so that he had to be led where ever God wanted him to go. Where was Paul's free will?

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me." Luke 22:31

Peter loved Yeshua, and he was ready to die for Him. He even argues with Yeshua in another account. So what happens next?

"And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.
And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
And Peter went out, and wept bitterly." Luke 22:60

Did Peter do this by his own free will? Was it possible that Peter should make our Lord out to be a liar?

"The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee." Daniel 4:30

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:34

Where was Nebuchadnezzar's free will. He believed he had done everything himself, but God showed him who is really in control.

"O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation." Isaiah 10:5

Why is the king of Assyria the rod of God's anger?

"For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped." Isaiah 10:8

What does God think about this?

"Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood." Isaiah 10:15

You see, I claim that God created man exactly the way He wanted them to be, but they were not perfect from within themselves. You claim that God created an entire universe, then put some humans on this habitat planet that He created, but before His creation even reproduced, they already thwarted His will. How does this make Adam and Eve perfect? If they were perfect, then it is impossible that they would be able to have an imperfection. So how did they transgress to begin with?

And please my friend, provide some Scripture. If all of this is true, then survey you have a few Scriptures that say these things.

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

How odd to claim a creature is not free to choose, but can be led to choose correctly and that leading of that creature will demonstrate the creatures love for it's master when it finally makes the "correct" choice, ie learns it's lesson. And that demonstrated love somehow superior to a love born under true freedom. How exactly is your view of God "teaching us" that different from the subjects of the earthly king whom he gives no true freedom?

This goes to my point and CS Lewis's as well. There is no real love, joy or goodness worth having without our being free to choose it. With that freedom comes the possibility we will not do what we should, which explains how we do and why there is evil without my having to say God made me to do evil.

Do you really honestly think after thousands of years of defending the truth that there are no scripture references to support these orthodox positions?
Do really think God intended to become man and reveal not just Himself but impart truths (His Word) to us only to have that truth buried (let me guess by the Church) and then supposedly "rediscovered" thousands of years later in relatively modern times?

As to scripture, since we will obviously not agree on meaning, am happy demonstrating the inconsistencies with the opposing view's understanding of scripture. If you want a full on scripture based explanation for orthodox positions then I would suggest that attempting to get that in a section labeled Controversial Theology is not the correct place. I can suggest some good reading, but I doubt you even go there. You know the Catechism is online for all to read and it is full of scripture references. If you insist I can give you links to go read but I seriously doubt you will do as I did in actually reading the article in your link.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Okay, not that I'm a universalist (I feel there are just too many difficulty verses to see it easily, but all the more glory to our God if it is true), but, does it make you mad to think that Christ would eventually save all of mankind? The fact that you say you'd rather jump on the Mormon bandwagon makes it sound like you almost find the thought of universal reconciliation insulting. Besides, it's not like universalists are saying there is no consequence at all for sin and evil. Just because they don't believe that consequence is eternal torment in hell doesn't mean they believe it's cool to go out and do evil and live any way they want, which I believe you have said or implied before earlier in this thread.

Agree with James is back, and will add most would have no problem with the thought of God saving the entire human race and all the angels. We could even hope that would be so for any individual, or all of us. The problem as you suggested is the references in scripture to what comes next does not paint that picture as a possible reality. I do however, (and yes I know narrow the path - which can still be true) I do like the thought and think it fitting to hope/believe that the balance of both angels and mankind end up with Him. He lost only 1/3 of the angels and Satan seems quite the deceiver.

But James is right. Just like we can be reminded that temporal pain and suffering are nothing compared to eternal Happiness, with the UR view a temporary time in Hell - even lengthy - is nothing compared to the reward waiting once the "lesson" the damned in Hell are said to be there to finish is "learned" --eternal happiness.

 

[SarahsKnight]

They may not teach that it's ok to sin but in the minds of many they'll see the doctrine as living whatever life they want to live because there is no final punishment for the unregenerate sinner.

Yeah, but, I don't think any universalist here is saying that, that there is no punishment at all, just as I said above. (Point out the post if I missed it, of course.) They just see it as corrective instead of retributive and eternally ongoing. Does that mean it's going to be pleasant? I would doubt that. My parents loved me, and sure as hell would not think of putting me in a torture chamber of any sort for any amount of time, much less eternally, but that doesn't mean I did not cringe at the thought of their inevitable rebuke - whether verbal or physical - when I knew I had done something wrong and they would find out. How much more unpleasant would it be to hear it straight from God's mouth that I trampled on the work of His Son at the cross and treated it as a small thing and be "taken to the woodshed" by Him?

But the problem is that it feels like you and other traditionalists are of the mindset that it has to be infinite torment, or it isn't a good enough punishment for the sinner. Now if I have assumed this wrongly, I apologize.

Now as to what you say about the atheist thinking if universal reconciliation is true, then why accept Christ now and not be able to "party harty" for the rest of their lives -> If we're talking about an atheist, they don't believe in God anyway, so I doubt whether he will punish them with infinite torment in hell or some kind of corrective, purifying punishment is of no consequence to them at all. He doesn't even exist to them. I have heard atheists declare that the message of the Gospel is useless to them anyway as they feel they need no saving from supposed sin, much have any concern about how they can grasp that salvation the Gospel offers or what the consequences of not taking it up will entail.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Holy crap, dude. No one is disputing that. In anything universalists affirm it all the more!

Actually plenty of folks here like Hillsage, in support of UR have claimed God creates evil, that He made Satan and mankind from the beginning as imperfect as we are now. Such thoughts are incompatible with claiming God is All Good.

 

[SarahsKnight]

You have a point there, Dr.

However, if this evil He created is all part of a plan to reconcile everyone and see how great His mighty hand is to save, perhaps we are missing something right now that we do not understand about Him and the way He thinks, and He has something grand to reveal right now in the end. And in any event, I for one would rather be treated as a puppet who would ultimately be loved by Him than even so much as be given the free will to choose eternal torment or not, which, might I add, everyone is apparently born with as the default choice like it or not in the mainstream Christian thought. Not trying to put this forth as Biblical truth, mind you, just giving my thoughts.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You have a point there, Dr.

However, if this evil He created is all part of a plan to reconcile everyone and see how great His mighty hand is to save, perhaps we are missing something right now that we do not understand about Him and the way He thinks, and He has something grand to reveal right now in the end. And in any event, I for one would rather be treated as a puppet who would ultimately be loved by Him than even so much as be given the free will to choose eternal torment or not, which, might I add, everyone is apparently born with as the default choice like it or not in the mainstream Christian thought. Not trying to put this forth as Biblical truth, mind you, just giving my thoughts.

Well ironically, the mainstream traditional view is that for the evil that obviously exists, God allows (not creates) it for both His Glory and the Greater Good. And that resolves both the existence of it and preserves are belief that God is All Good.

No one yet holding to the allegation that God created all evil has been able to explain holding that belief along with saying He is All Good. Creating something means it was intended to be that. In this case the claim is saying God wants the opposite of what He is, to be. Which of course makes no sense.