Universal reconciliation

[2KnowHim]

Jerry, the scriptures is plain, it says he, the king of Tyre was in Eden, so was Pharaoh, if you chose to read them another way who am I to stop you.

 

[2KnowHim]

Jerry, I will say this though, ....
Joh_21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

And also this, ....We are to live by EVERY Word that proceeds out of The Mouth of God, do think He has nothing more to say today than that which is written with pen and ink?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jerry, I will say this though, ....
Joh_21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

And also this, ....We are to live by EVERY Word that proceeds out of The Mouth of God, do think He has nothing more to say today than that which is written with pen and ink?

John 21.25 is a very interesting verse. I think that commentators have over the years had various ideas about it.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

He did, but it was NOT the first Adam, but The Last which is His Son, His Word, His Seed, after His kind.

The rest of what you said, is just nonsense, there is no such thing as free will Dr. that is one of the biggest lies that we have ever believed. That is what I define as looking through that window. It's the same lie that the serpent convince Adam of and the same one he has convinced you of.

You don't get what I am saying.
Ok, fine ;let me try again - imagine we have no free will. Then you are literally saying God set Adam up with all the tools to fail - created Him to fail - IOW there was NEVER any possibility that Adam would not sin. In fact Adam did not even choose - you are saying Adam was made to sin - another way of saying Adam was made to do "not good" which just another way of saying Adam was made to do evil - and you are claiming God made Him that way. So God made a creature to do evil - which since you claim God did that, can only mean He wanted evil to happen, otherwise He would not have made Adam the way you claim He did. So you are saying God made evil a reality. Fine, I accept that you believe that and think you have been "shown" that that is true. Ok, I get it. Actually got it some time ago.

So now please explain just one thing that I see wrong with your thought (for there are many I see). Tell me WHY I am wrong about this. No comment on my orthodox view, not on my thoughts - just answer ONE thing about YOUR VIEW, YOUR THOUGHTS. No more objections to orthodox view, no rants about how I do not see, no rants at how closed you think my eyes are, no rants how the Church has deceived us....etc, JUST ANSWER ONE THING ONLY about YOUR THOUGHTS as just expressed.

How is it possible to claim a creator that you just essentially said wants evil to happen is All Good?

 

[dms1972]

I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

My view is that some forms of it are heresy, and others are not. For instance I would not regard George MacDonald as a heretical teacher, but then he didn't hold to universalism dogmatically.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry, the scriptures is plain, it says he, the king of Tyre was in Eden, so was Pharaoh, if you chose to read them another way who am I to stop you.

2knowhim,
I didn't say he wasn't in that region or Pharoah either. The original Garden of Eden did include those areas in Adam and Eve's day.
You are misunderstanding what a double reference is. First of all the prince of Tyrus was addressed about his heart being lifted up and wanting to sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man and not God though thou set thine heart as the heart of God. Ezekiel 28:2. The King of Tyrus would be Satan for he was created sinless and the prince of Tyrus was not for he was a man. This is a comparison of the prince and the king and their pride and corruption. The prince of Tyrus was a man which Satan was not and Satan was the king over that region in the original Eden and was created sinless and the prince of Tyrus was not.
You have to understand the whole context of what is being said and why it is being said. Jerry kelso

 

[2KnowHim]

How is it possible to claim a creator that you just essentially said wants evil to happen is All Good?

Because without it, there would be no knowing Him, and how good He really is. Without Darkness, we would not know Light.
Without Error, we would not know Truth. Without Sin we would not know Salvation.

There would be no need of A Saviour if we were all created Perfect. We would never Know God in The Depths of who His is and all His Attributes. Without hate, we would not know Love.

And don't forget God knew Good and Evil before Adam, and said now he has become one of us to know good and evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

The King of Tyrus would be Satan for he was created sinless

You cannot prove that with scripture, Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, there is no truth in him, he was a liar from the beginning.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Because without it, there would be no knowing Him, and how good He really is. Without Darkness, we would not know Light.
Without Error, we would not know Truth. Without Sin we would not know Salvation.

There would be no need of A Saviour if we were all created Perfect. We would never Know God in The Depths of who His is and all His Attributes. Without hate, we would not know Love.

And don't forget God knew Good and Evil before Adam, and said now he has become one of us to know good and evil.

So you are basically saying you can't answer the question?
You answered a hypothetical I did not ask - why you think there is evil. I asked why you think you call God ALL GOOD if at same time you claim He wanted/created evil?

 

[2KnowHim]

So you are basically saying you can't answer the question?
You answered a hypothetical I did not ask - why you think there is evil. I asked why you think you call God ALL GOOD if at same time you claim He wanted/created evil?

God is All Good, and I told you what I know. Just because you can't see the benefits that evil is a tool that God uses for the Good is not my problem it's yours. The Bible calls iniquity a mystery. So I think you would have to reconcile it for yourself.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God is All Good, and I told you what I know. Just because you can't see the benefits that evil is a tool that God uses for the Good is not my problem it's yours. The Bible calls iniquity a mystery. So I think you would have to reconcile it for yourself.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I did not ask if God could use evil deeds for Good. I asked how you can see God as ALL GOOD when you claim He wanted evil - basically did evil in making Adam the way you claim He did. No mystery. How is a Creator considered ALL Good when you just said He did evil?
And if you are going to object that you did not mean to say God did evil (which is clearly what your post implied) - then please explain the difference between saying God wanted evil to exist and acted made it so, and doing evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

I told you, you just won't accept my answer because you yourself don't understand how God being good could create evil.
I also told you how evil is a benefit in His hands. And yet God is still good. I never said God does evil. You did. not me.
God creates evil, that doesn't mean He does evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

Does the scripture say He creates evil Dr. or not? I don't have a problem with it. I can see how He would use it in many different ways. But can you?

 

[anonymouswho]

Well, we can agree to disagree whether there were/are exceptions for people Elijah and Enoch, maybe Moses that God made for people like them at the end of their life here. To say He could not make exceptions is to limit God. Clearly the Bible says something special happened to those men at the end of their life that represents some sort of exception compared to us average blokes. To suggest otherwise is deny what scripture plainly says. Does it mean I, as a Catholic, have to believe because the Church teaches these men (and open to possibility of "others") were "assumed" into Heaven equals they ascended like Our Lord God - no and actually that is explainable but goes beyond the topic here. If you want to ask questions about salvation, what it means to be Holy as He is holy...etc then another thread is needed.

That's fine my friend, but as long as we disagree on this issue, I'm not sure how else to explain what else I believe. It seems the only argument you've brought up is "that would limit God", which seems to imply that we can claim whatever we wish, and if anyone disagrees then they are "limiting" God; despite the fact that this contradicts plenty of Scripture. So if it's okay, for the sake of this discussion, can we just assume that Enoch and Elijah are dead?

As for immortality, most (not all) would never refute the immortality of our soul/spirit, so am thinking (hoping) we are only talking about our bodies. Clearly God put Adam in a place where he "COULD HAVE" lived (body and soul) forever as the story indicates that after he sinned Adam no longer had/was prevented from availing himself of that ability - whatever one sees the Tree of Life as represents - (perhaps multiple meanings but I like the common association of the Tree of Life with the Son of God). If God had not intended for Adam to live forever, then why originally put man in a place where the free access to that potential existed?

I would have to argue that man was not created immortal. The Tree of Life was in the Garden, and I see no reason for there to be a Tree that would give us immortality, if we were already immortal.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:53

Paul says we must "put on immortality". This suggests to me that we are not immortal, but we will become immortal after the Resurrection. This immortality has nothing to do with "eternal life" or aionios zoe. This "eternal life" is the life we experience now, in that we get to know the One True God and His Son.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Surely as long as we are living this meaningless existence, there is nothing greater than this.

Also, as I mentioned, it makes no sense to say God made man to share in His Eternal happiness if He did not at the same time provide the means for man (body and soul) lasting forever in order to that sharing possible. And that does not necessarily mean He created Adam immortal, but more in line with the story, He gave Adam/mankind access to the ability to live forever - which the Tree of Life represents. Adam appears to have had such access, at least until he sinned. And that temporary access to immortality is suggested as at least one explanation for the longevity attributed to our common ancestors beginning with Adam, the effect of which appears to have diminish with succeeding generations. The diminishing aspect also in keeping with the idea sin corrupting everything, including our physical bodies - death came for all by the sin of one man.

I actually don't see a diminishing lifespan after Adam. Adam only lived to be 930, but Methuselah lived to be 969. Noah was the last man to live a long life before God shortened our days, and he lived to be 950, which is 20 years longer than Adam. I don't necessarily believe this has to do with how sinful these people were. It doesn't seem illogical to assume that mankind lived these long lives for the advancement of civilization. Imagine if Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein lived to be a thousand years old.

And I like the attempt at arriving at a purpose which precludes the need to say creation, including man, was originally perfect. You were the first UR here to attempt to do so - congrats. Am completing the thought, so correct if I got it wrong. The claim is God made us man imperfect in order to then "work in" us so that eventually we can reach a state where we will "be made in His Image". As I have repeatedly pointed out before in this thread to Hillsage and others, this is the end result of the UR theology - people just need time and perhaps a coach helps (Jesus)- to finally reach the point (either in this life or in Hell) to "only choose Good" so they can then be "made in His Image". I can see a need for assistance/coaching but I see no necessity in that construct for a Savior. The already stated orthodox purpose for God making man combined with our belief that our current state being a result of the sin of the first man creates a true NECESSITY for a Savior to restore us so we truly and correctly reflect the Image in which we were made.

I also see direct contradictions with such thoughts beginning with the creation story stating that He made man/Adam in His Image. Either He did or did not, apparently many UR holders here believe He did not make us in Image as the creation story states, but will one day. Some URs attempt to circumvent that by suggesting the creation story mingles talk of our past/origins with a future state, but I think that only further muddies the waters.

I would like to share with you my interpretation of the Garden incident. I've posted this on here before, so if it's okay I'll just copy and paste it:

(There's a few things written here that I have already said, but hopefully this will clarify why I said these things.)

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God tells us right in the first chapter what His plan is for mankind. He is making us in His Image, after His Likeness. This required something that Adam and Eve did not possess when He created them: the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Notice God says "let us make man in our Image", and then it says "so God created man in His Image". These two verbs are different because the process is different. Only God can create (Hebrew בָּרָא bara: create, fashion), but to make (Hebrew עָשָׂה asah: make, do, accomplish) requires taking what has been created, and bringing about something different.

Hebrew doesn't have tenses like English: past, present, and future. Instead, Hebrew has the Perfect and Imperfect aspect. "Make" is written in the Perfect aspect, which basically means "here now- but not yet) Here is an article about it:

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/the-prophetic-perfect

After God says this, we read about how He set out to accomplish this. God Himself plants the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden, along with the Tree of Life. I believe this next verse is where the true confusion lies:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

Here, we see that God tells Adam that he may eat of every tree in the Garden. Then God warns man that if He eats of the Tree of Knowledge, he will die.

The problem with this translation is the word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of it". The word shalt is not in the original Hebrew. The original says:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ (of the tree) הַדַּ֙עַת֙ (of the knowledge) ט֣וֹב (of good) וָרָ֔ע (and evil)לֹ֥א (not) תֹאכַ֖ל (eat) תֹאכַ֖ל (of)

God did not "command" them regarding whether they could eat of the Tree, He warned them of the consequences if they did eat. With this in mind, let's see if we can make sense of this all.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"Genesis3:1

So now we are introduced to the Serpent, whom God had made more subtile than any other beast. Right from the beginning, he lies to to Eve. God never said they may "not" eat of every tree, He said they "may" eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, but she responds with what God had told her:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2-3

Then, the Serpent lies again, but deceives Eve by mixing his lie with truth:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

Eve did not know any better when she ate the Fruit. She had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. How could she have made a rational decision? This was all in perfect alignment of God's original and only plan. God verifies that everything is going according to His plan next:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know goodand evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see my friend, this was not a huge mishap on God's part by which He had to resort to plan B. There is no plan B.

God desired to make man in His Image, and this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God Himself planted the Tree and created the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had this new Knowledge, but they lacked the Wisdom and Prudence to use it. Yeshua fulfills this prophecy and purpose of mankind, as He is the first man to be given the status of Sonship and aquire the true Image of God:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" Colossians 1:15

And that is why Yeshua is our Savior. It is through Yeshua that God saves us. God alone is Savior of all mankind, but He has done this through His Messiah.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31

"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus" Acts 13:23

"Potential" in regards to immortality is a way of suggesting that the access Adam had to "the Tree of Life" was not something God gave man as part of our nature - IOW He did not make Adam's body immortal, but rather something He originally gave mankind direct access to - in order to allow man to live forever - something that sustained the body in a state of immortality - and the lasting (but diminishing because of sin) effects of that seen by (and explains) the longevity the Bible attributes t our early ancestors. It is only if we CAN (potential) live forever that talk of sharing in His Eternal Happiness makes any sense. He does not need to make us at all, so saying He wants us to share in His Eternal Happiness must mean He wants us to do so eternally - which requires we do not cease to exist as human (both body and soul - the way He made us).

Saying the Grace Jesus made possible is eternal - is my reference to the thought that that a single sacrifice is a continual sacrifice for all sin - forward and backward in time. Which BTW if all that is needed is for us to eventually with time (this life or the next in Hell) to learn by God "working in us" to only choose Good - then there really is no need for that sacrifice. Which was also one of my points regarding the UR theology negating the traditional purpose for which we say God made us.

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

"I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." Psalm 50:8

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward." Jeremiah 7:21

Sacrifices are not part of the Law. It was not required when God gave Moses the Law, and He put an end to it with Yeshua. There was no sin in Yeshua, which means He never broke a single Law ever. Yet we never once read of Yeshua giving a burnt offering. He loved God with all His heart. He was completely obedient, even when this obedience meant physical death. This love and obedience was His Sacrifice.

"Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Luke 22:42

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:8

God doesn't desire sacrifices, He desires mercy and justice. Yeshua received neither of those things, although no sin was found in Him.

I'm going to post one more large passage, and then I will stop for now. Please read this carefully as Paul explains everything:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:12

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

w

I told you, you just won't accept my answer because you yourself don't understand how God being good could create evil. I also told you how evil is a benefit in His hands. And yet God is still good. I never said God does evil. You did. not me. God creates evil, that doesn't mean He does evil.

Essentially you are saying creating/making "not Good" is Good (since you deny doing so is evil). You have also essentially just said that "creating" is not "doing". And you are correct, I see no way I could understand those statements. God allowing something for the greater good I can understand, even if I cannot see the greater good.

The Creation story we have been focusing on shows Adam bringing evil into existence after his being made VERY GOOD and put in a VERY GOOD place. And that is the setup for why this world and mankind needs a redeemer in order to return to that state/status of Very Good - which as I keep pointing out - the UR view removes that setup as being the why. And to help support the UR view, we now appear to come to questioning even if God is All Good.

Like I said in last post, if you deny God "does" evil but maintain the claim as you just did again that He created evil, then please explain the distinction you make between between doing wrong (not Good) and being wrong (not Good). If that distinction were possible, then is my sinning also not my being wrong? Can I too do wrong but not be wrong in doing it?
By saying God creates evil, you are in essence saying a Good and Perfect Mind is conceiving (creates in His Mind) the opposite of What He is, then His Good and Perfect Will is having Him desire it to move Him to create/form the opposite of What He is - desire first then make evil a reality. So not only does that sequence have Good making evil, it has Good desiring/wanting evil. To claim God desires and creates(acts/does) evil, am not sure any explanation is possible short of claiming God is not All Good. Which is why I asked you that question in the first place.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Does the scripture say He creates evil Dr. or not? I don't have a problem with it. I can see how He would use it in many different ways. But can you?

No, scripture does not show God creating evil. Scripture shows God allowing evil to exist by allowing some of the creatures He made the ability to do evil. Ability meaning capability, a choice, their choice and not a part of them (as something He made in them). He does not force us to love Him. No. He gives us (and the angels) the freedom to love or not love All Good(Him). The not part would be doing evil, making evil a reality. If none of those created creatures did evil, then this world would be exactly as He originally made it, Very Good.

But yes, certainly God is capable of using whatever His created creatures do for Good, even if we cannot see the greater Good of what He allows them to do. Certainly there is much evil now and much evil has been done in this world, so clearly He allows it because it happens. The distinction is God is not said to be "doing" the opposite of what He is, evil, in order to use it for the greater Good. God is not "doing" it at all, His created creatures are "making" evil exist.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That's fine my friend, but as long as we disagree on this issue, I'm not sure how else to explain what else I believe. It seems the only argument you've brought up is "that would limit God", which seems to imply that we can claim whatever we wish, and if anyone disagrees then they are "limiting" God; despite the fact that this contradicts plenty of Scripture. So if it's okay, for the sake of this discussion, can we just assume that Enoch and Elijah are dead?



I would have to argue that man was not created immortal. The Tree of Life was in the Garden, and I see no reason for there to be a Tree that would give us immortality, if we were already immortal.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:53

Paul says we must "put on immortality". This suggests to me that we are not immortal, but we will become immortal after the Resurrection. This immortality has nothing to do with "eternal life" or aionios zoe. This "eternal life" is the life we experience now, in that we get to know the One True God and His Son.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Surely as long as we are living this meaningless existence, there is nothing greater than this.



I actually don't see a diminishing lifespan after Adam. Adam only lived to be 930, but Methuselah lived to be 969. Noah was the last man to live a long life before God shortened our days, and he lived to be 950, which is 20 years longer than Adam. I don't necessarily believe this has to do with how sinful these people were. It doesn't seem illogical to assume that mankind lived these long lives for the advancement of civilization. Imagine if Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein lived to be a thousand years old.






I would like to share with you my interpretation of the Garden incident. I've posted this on here before, so if it's okay I'll just copy and paste it:

(There's a few things written here that I have already said, but hopefully this will clarify why I said these things.)

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

God tells us right in the first chapter what His plan is for mankind. He is making us in His Image, after His Likeness. This required something that Adam and Eve did not possess when He created them: the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Notice God says "let us make man in our Image", and then it says "so God created man in His Image". These two verbs are different because the process is different. Only God can create (Hebrew בָּרָא bara: create, fashion), but to make (Hebrew עָשָׂה asah: make, do, accomplish) requires taking what has been created, and bringing about something different.

Hebrew doesn't have tenses like English: past, present, and future. Instead, Hebrew has the Perfect and Imperfect aspect. "Make" is written in the Perfect aspect, which basically means "here now- but not yet) Here is an article about it:

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/the-prophetic-perfect

After God says this, we read about how He set out to accomplish this. God Himself plants the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden, along with the Tree of Life. I believe this next verse is where the true confusion lies:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou [shalt] not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

Here, we see that God tells Adam that he may eat of every tree in the Garden. Then God warns man that if He eats of the Tree of Knowledge, he will die.

The problem with this translation is the word "shalt" in "thou shalt not eat of it". The word shalt is not in the original Hebrew. The original says:

וּמֵעֵ֗ץ (of the tree) הַדַּ֙עַת֙ (of the knowledge) ט֣וֹב (of good) וָרָ֔ע (and evil)לֹ֥א (not) תֹאכַ֖ל (eat) תֹאכַ֖ל (of)

God did not "command" them regarding whether they could eat of the Tree, He warned them of the consequences if they did eat. With this in mind, let's see if we can make sense of this all.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"Genesis3:1

So now we are introduced to the Serpent, whom God had made more subtile than any other beast. Right from the beginning, he lies to to Eve. God never said they may "not" eat of every tree, He said they "may" eat of every tree. This confuses Eve, but she responds with what God had told her:

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Genesis 3:2-3

Then, the Serpent lies again, but deceives Eve by mixing his lie with truth:

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5

Eve did not know any better when she ate the Fruit. She had no knowledge of either Good or Evil. How could she have made a rational decision? This was all in perfect alignment of God's original and only plan. God verifies that everything is going according to His plan next:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know goodand evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" Genesis 3:22

You see my friend, this was not a huge mishap on God's part by which He had to resort to plan B. There is no plan B.

God desired to make man in His Image, and this required the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God Himself planted the Tree and created the Serpent to tempt Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve had this new Knowledge, but they lacked the Wisdom and Prudence to use it. Yeshua fulfills this prophecy and purpose of mankind, as He is the first man to be given the status of Sonship and aquire the true Image of God:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" Colossians 1:15

And that is why Yeshua is our Savior. It is through Yeshua that God saves us. God alone is Savior of all mankind, but He has done this through His Messiah.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31

"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus" Acts 13:23



"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

"I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." Psalm 50:8

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward." Jeremiah 7:21

Sacrifices are not part of the Law. It was not required when God gave Moses the Law, and He put an end to it with Yeshua. There was no sin in Yeshua, which means He never broke a single Law ever. Yet we never once read of Yeshua giving a burnt offering. He loved God with all His heart. He was completely obedient, even when this obedience meant physical death. This love and obedience was His Sacrifice.

"Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Luke 22:42

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:8

God doesn't desire sacrifices, He desires mercy and justice. Yeshua received neither of those things, although no sin was found in Him.

I'm going to post one more large passage, and then I will stop for now. Please read this carefully as Paul explains everything:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:12

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

We further off topic to continue this, so I will try to redirect back to UR.

I do find it interesting/odd that in your defense of your presentation of the Creation story (which I agree with the theologians saying there are actually two distinct and independent stories that have been passed down) that you link an article which defends using Hebrew perfect/imperfect tense in defending specific understandings of various verses throughout the Bible. Without needing to agree with any of those understandings, I noticed that article cites many verses where it is claimed this perfect/imperfect tense is useful to know, but that writer skips over the very example (the Creation story) you wish to apply that understanding to. Yes, that is odd.

To carry on about the Creation story let's go here:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...d-adam-and-eve-know-right-from-wrong.7902833/

To carry on about God creating evil go here:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/did-god-create-evil.7902837/

I did not bring up the creation story here in this UR thread to debate the meaning of it. It only came up with my trying to demonstrate how the defense of the UR position frequently undermines, diminishes, cast doubt upon or even opposes/refutes, many other basic and fundamental truths of our Christian faith. Specifically in this case, that God is All Good, which another UR defender here has at least cast doubt on; and second why God made us - which goes to our understanding of the creation story and the Fall of mankind (in Adam's act) which goes to why we need a redeemer/Savoir from that Fall.

The UR claim was God “planted an imperfect seed” like some scify version attempt of explaining our existence by an alien race being responsible – wanting us to eventually evolve into something relatable to our “maker” (for the UR version evolve either during this life or continue in Hell in the next until we “get it”). That defense of UR flies in the face of both God being All Good (creating evil) and our needing a Savoir to recover from a Fall (if the creative act were an “imperfect seed” then there is no Fall).

 

[jerry kelso]

You cannot prove that with scripture, Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, there is no truth in him, he was a liar from the beginning.

2knowhim,
I already did and you don't believe.
Satan was a murderer from the beginning doesn't reconcile with the fact that he was created perfect until iniquity was found in him. God creates perfect and sinless, not sinful and a murderer. You do not understand how to reconcile the scriptures. The devil sinneth from the beginning is talking about when he sinned and not before for he served God and was the highest order of angels and got 1/3 to rebel with him. You don't understand context and how to reconcile the scriptures together. When you don't you just give part of the picture and part truth and not the whole truth. Jerry Kelso

 

[2KnowHim]

The Creation story we have been focusing on shows Adam bringing evil into existence after his being made VERY GOOD and put in a VERY GOOD place.

Ok, there is your problem right there..... When God said it was very good in Gen 1:31 You think He is refering to Adam in The Garden, But He's Not, He is talking about The End of His Works, through The Last Adam, His Son, that's what He's talking about, Not the first.

Just because ch.1 is before ch.2 in your bible, does not mean that you are to understand them that way.
The whole plan of God from beginning to the End is seen in the first ch. through 2:4, And then starts over again.
It is a pattern, that is seen again, and again, and again.....

Adam and the Garden is seen in Gen.1:2 hence the darkness within the first day also,
God speaks the Light/Truth into the world to call and redeem, and then we see division and a lot of it,
through the third day, the wheat and the tares etc. are here also..
Jesus Christ is seen in Gen. 1:14-19 as He was made manifest on this earth coming on the fourth day
Then what He has accomplished is seen multiplying and being fruitful in the fifth day
Up to this point, it's just been the Firstfruits of The Spirit of Christ....But Now....
Let us make............All Mankind, "this is the harvest of the world" in our image and our Likeness....and let them have dominion over....
Then we have those words, God saw EVERYTHING He had made...and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the Sixth day.
Then we have All entered into His Rest, His Works, .......Then The details of that begin to play out in the Garden of the whole chapter 1--again, and again, giving more and more details along the way.

This is a very short explanation, but it is Truth, and it is The Solid foundation for all of scripture.

 

[2KnowHim]

No, scripture does not show God creating evil.

So what do you do with this scripture,? Just throw it out because you can't believe a Good God could do these things.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.