Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[Cribstyl]

It is NOT true that only the Jews reject the NT, NOR is it true that all Jews reject the NT. For example I am a Jew and I accept the NT.

When you make statements about "ALL Jews" that is when you run the risk of saying something anti-semitic. We are a diverse group.

I see where this conversation is heading... I'm sorry...... have a good day.

 

[Meowzltov]

Do you consider "worship of the One True God" - a "Jewish obligation"??

It is a commanment that didn't need to be taught to Gentile believers, such as not stealing or not murdering. The trick with Gentiles was to make sure they didn't worship other gods along with the one true God. And so you had the prohibition of idolatry in the letter.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 15 is silent on the obligations of Christian Jews

It makes its case for the obligation of Gentiles specifically in the context of Eph 2 "circumcision" as also noted in Galatians 5. An obligation that did not exist for gentiles in the OT. One that was "made up" halacha added by some Jews in the NT - but not coming from the actual text of the Bible for gentiles.

, thus affirming that Christian Jews should continue doing what they had been doing, which was keeping the law. Thus what was expected of Christian Jews was different than what was expected of Christian Gentiles.

I think that there is some truth to that. For example when it came to Passover - Paul demonstrated on several occasions his interest in keeping it.

 

[BobRyan]

I certainly have scriptural evidence: the Council of Jerusalem. Jewish obligations were removed from Gentiles; keeping the Sabbath is certainly not listed as one of their obligations in the letter sent to them.

Do you consider "worship of the One True God" - a "Jewish obligation"??

It is a commandment that didn't need to be taught to Gentile believers,

It is explicitly taught in Deut 6:5, in Exodus 20:3-6 to Jews... but you are saying that gentiles had advanced beyond the Jews and did not need the scriptures on that point??

Perhaps we differ there as well, when it comes to Bible texts that gentiles need to pay attention to.

such as not stealing or not murdering.

Again more scripture from Ex 20 given to Jews - that you think the pagan-gentiles-just-turned-to-Christ would need to ignore or would certainly not need to read at all??

Odd then that Paul quotes the 5th commandment in Eph 6:1-2 to those gentiles "as if they needed it".

And James quotes the commandments to gentiles in James 2 "as if they needed to read it".

The trick with Gentiles was to make sure they didn't worship other gods along with the one true God.

That would reduce down to " a very tiny Bible" for gentiles. Most of us gentile Christians reject that notion (as my signature line points out).

Even James argues that the part of the solution for the problem about 'what gentiles need' -- is solved by the fact that as in Acts 13, and 17, and 18 'Moses is heard every Sabbath in the Synagogues"

 

[BobRyan]

So then.. another attempt at the focus on the "response" to the OP question/accusation that is being made...

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68458861, member: 235244"]In case interest in the OP point persists - we had this detail raised earlier on this thread.


QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 67315751,]

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Cribstyl]

That much is true.

But the LAW of God has to be that which is known to Jeremiah and his intended reader. There is no escaping that fact of Bible exegesis.

The difference is that under the New Covenant the LAW of God is on the heart and mind according "to the actual text".

There are a great many Christians today who would affirm that basic detail in the text - including all those groups listed in my signature line.

Your eyes are close to understanding what Jeremiah 31 is saying; The New Covenant is not the Old Covenant.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath is Saturday the seventh day of the week. However scripture seems to imply that as long as you rest one day of seven then you are abiding by the law of the Sabbath. Thank you.

Do you have a Bible text for "pick any day you wish out of seven"??

Do you find it here?

Ex 20
8 Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

How about here?
Ex 16
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of The Holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

Notice that manna did not fall the other six days. Any Jew claiming "God has not designated the exact day - I can pick any day I wish" was probably going to go hungry - when it turned out that on the actual Sabbath - no manna fell - and their own fake sabbath the manna from the prior day would not keep over.

 

[BobRyan]

... what Jeremiah 31 is saying; The New Covenant is not the Old Covenant.
.

The best part is that we get to keep having this same conversation over and over -

That much is true.

But the LAW of God has to be that which is known to Jeremiah and his intended reader. There is no escaping that fact of Bible exegesis.

The difference is that under the New Covenant the LAW of God is on the heart and mind according "to the actual text".

There are a great many Christians today who would affirm that basic detail in the text - including all those groups listed in my signature line.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

It all fits perfectly.

"If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

 

[BobRyan]

In Mark 7 - is Christ teaching that the Commandments of God are not all that set in stone - and if man finds some variation, modification to them to be more convenient - then by all means make changes??

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68458906, member: 235244"]And does Christ approve of such editing of His Commandments?

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”[/QUOTE]

 

[Meowzltov]

I think that there is some truth to that. For example when it came to Passover - Paul demonstrated on several occasions his interest in keeping it.

Absolutely, Bob.

 

[Meowzltov]

It is explicitly taught in Deut 6:5, in Exodus 20:3-6 to Jews... but you are saying that gentiles had advanced beyond the Jews and did not need the scriptures on that point??

I'm claiming it goes without saying that you worship the god you believe in. The problem with the gentiles was believing in many gods. Thus the apostles and bishops taught them to refrain from idolatry, a prohibition spelled out in the letter dictated at the Council of Jerusalem.

 

[BobRyan]

It did not "go without saying" for Jews in Deut 5 and Exodus 20.

Christ mentioned it to them "again" in Matt 22.

James mentions it in James 2.

I don't think they were downsizing scripture to the NT that does not mention it -- I think they were accepting the 39 and also creating 27 more.

 

[Elder 111]

Here is an intelligent, short and to the point video about Sunday worship's origin.

I do not succumb to Catholic beliefs and practices. I do my best to report historical truths. My goal is to present that the foundational day of worship was established on biblical arguments made thousands of years ago.

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.

Some things to note.

1. The Lord's day is not/was never Sunday.
2. God did not call for us to keep Sunday at any time nor for any reason.
3. The Sabbath was not pointing to Christ but is in memorial of God as the Creator. That is what God said.
4. The Sabbath was not a ceremony but a command of God from creation.
5. There is nothing of Sunday worship in all the bible.
6. How can the Sabbath be made to point towards Jesus when it was instituted before sin? There was no need to point to Jesus until after the fall!

The video is based on false foundations and flawed interpretations of scripture.

 

[sahjimira]

Jesus and the apostles observed Saturday sabbath. That's good enough for me. Paul did too. We r to follow their example, r we not? God does regard the motive of the heart so I hear what ur saying about esteeming days. Since most Paul talked to were gentiles I believe he was referring to not getting upset when others disputed them about keeping Saturday sabbath and other feast days. But yes u do have to be persuaded in ur own heart. But I do believe it was the Catholic church and Constantine who changed it to Sunday

 

[Meowzltov]

It did not "go without saying" for Jews in Deut 5 and Exodus 20.

I thought we weren't talking about Jews.

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus and the apostles observed Saturday sabbath. That's good enough for me. Paul did too. We r to follow their example, r we not? God does regard the motive of the heart so I hear what ur saying about esteeming days. Since most Paul talked to were gentiles I believe he was referring to not getting upset when others disputed them about keeping Saturday sabbath and other feast days. But yes u do have to be persuaded in ur own heart. But I do believe it was the Catholic church and Constantine who changed it to Sunday

Well, according to the bible Jesus fulfilled the law and especially the shadows (no this does not allow sin). That's also good enough for me. We're suppose to follow believe in the gospel r we not? What the scriptures say about esteeming days is of the doctrine of Jesus Christ given to Paul for Gentiles. The fact are spelled out in letters to the Romans, Galatians and Colossians. We post what is taught as doctrine rather than speculations by so-called prophets that divide Christianity.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[Cribstyl]

Some things to note.
1.The Lord's day is not/was never Sunday.

It's debatable whether what John declare as the Lord's day was Saturday or Sunday. To many protestants, the Catholic church made claims that contradict the scriptures. History proves that Sabbathkeeping and Sunday worship are not the same thing. Scripture proves that every day they spread the gospel and worshipped.

2. God did not call for us to keep Sunday at any time nor for any reason.

Your notes are cunning schemes intended to flush the gospel for the law.
Paul taught that we should not judge about a day or days taken to honor God. Everyone should be persuaded in their own hearts.

3. The Sabbath was not pointing to Christ but is in memorial of God as the Creator. That is what God said.

Moot point...When Moses and Elijah transfigured with Jesus. Peter took it as a reason to enshrine all 3prophetic ministries. God interrupted Peter's idea and pointed to Jesus.

4.The Sabbath was not a ceremony but a command of God from creation.

False, there is no creation command to keep the Sabbath. Show it? God did say it was a sign for Him and 1 group. This was not at creation and definitely not to the world. The Sabbath is noted with all the feasts and with the Levitical ceremonies

5. There is nothing of Sunday worship in all the bible.

False, The day of Pentecost was a Sunday and here is what happened after over 3000 people got baptized with the Holy Spirit ; they continued daily preaching and teaching adding to the church daily those who wanted salvation.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

5. How can the Sabbath be made to point towards Jesus when it was instituted before sin? There was no need to point to Jesus until after the fall!

False, prove it.

The video is based on false foundations and flawed interpretations of scripture.

Why not redeem the so-called flawed scriptures? The first 7 minutes show the video as a rebuttal to SDA claims and an explanation of what Catholic believe is truth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joHiQsgDTs4

It took me hours of research to respond to your post. I already know you have an unlimited supply of questions with implications. Can you prove anything you say is the truth?[/QUOTE]

 

[Cribstyl]

It did not "go without saying" for Jews in Deut 5 and Exodus 20.

Christ mentioned it to them "again" in Matt 22.

James mentions it in James 2.

I don't think they were downsizing scripture to the NT that does not mention it -- I think they were accepting the 39 and also creating 27 more.

If Christ told Paul to teach Gentiles that they're not under the law, your comments are suspected as questionable.

 

[Elder 111]

Well, according to the bible Jesus fulfilled the law and especially the shadows (no this does not allow sin). That's also good enough for me. We're suppose to follow believe in the gospel r we not? What the scriptures say about esteeming days is of the doctrine of Jesus Christ given to Paul for Gentiles. The fact are spelled out in letters to the Romans, Galatians and Colossians. We post what is taught as doctrine rather than speculations by so-called prophets that divide Christianity.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The ten commandments are not a "shadow of things to come", so we know that Paul does not mean the ten commandments. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Is that which is holy to be disregarded by a holy people? 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Why is Paul delighting in that which you contents he has nullify? Is Paul a hypocrite or have you misunderstood him? Paul speaks of those things that pointed to Christ and His sacrifice for all men , such as the temple and it services, that is why the veil was rent in two at His death. No more ministration and sacrifice by the priest was required. Mat 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
There was no more need to point to Christ, He had come and fulfill the things prophesied of Him. This fulfilling has nothing to do with removing the Ten commandments but simply means doing the things that He was required to do for the salvation of all men. Fulfill does not mean remove anyway, it means "to carry out", "to do".
If removing the law was what was required, Jesus had no reason to die. Just remove the law and man could not be guilty of breaking it.