Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[Cribstyl]

I forgot that I started this thread....OH MY

 

[Cribstyl]

So.... we should get rid of the New Testament, since it added to the Bible?

What a Jew would say for 100 Alex.

 

[SAAN]

Ok.. you've proven that Sabbath is not a subject in Romans. I guess you want to say that Sabbaths are the authorized days of worship?

Ok.. you've proven there's no debate about Sat/Sun worship. But you want to ignore what these words in red below are saying about days regarded unto the Lord.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Its about fasting and the issues of them eating meat and not eating meat. Stop cherry picking and read the chapter in context. Verses 1-4 pretty much give away what they were debating about.

Romans 14
The Law of Liberty
14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every dayalike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

The Law of Love
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

[BukiRob]

Gentiles did not observe the Shabbat.

Just because you say it does not make it so....you have no scriptural basis for making that claim. There is mountains of evidence that the entire body in Asia minor observed Sabbath AND the feast days of Adonai. You know FULL well that Polycarp and Antecitus argued over Nissan 14. Stop trying to recolor the early church history because it doesnt fit into your argument.

 

[BobRyan]

The word Sabbath is nowhere to be found in the book of Romans. Romans 14, IN CONTEXT, is referring to vegetarianism and fasting and is not debating about Saturday vs Sunday worship.

And the vegetarian issue in the first century is fully defined by Paul in 1 Cor 8 where he says he would "never eat meat again" if it causes his gentile brother who is fearful of meats offered to idols - to stumble. A brother weak in the faith, who is "accustomed to idols until now" and is newly converted out of it.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus IS my sabbath. I rest in Him.

Nice.

Jesus said -
"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

 

[BobRyan]

Just because you say it does not make it so....you have no scriptural basis for making that claim. There is mountains of evidence that the entire body in Asia minor observed Sabbath AND the feast days of Adonai. You know FULL well that Polycarp and Antecitus argued over Nissan 14. Stop trying to recolor the early church history because it doesnt fit into your argument.

Acts 13 -- gentiles keeping the Sabbath.
Acts 17 - gentiles keeping the Sabbath
Acts 18 - gentiles keeping the Sabbath

Is 56 is a special promise given to gentiles who keep the Sabbath.

Thus says the Lord:


“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

We "gentiles" like to think that we are a big important part of "mankind" -- as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68454484,"]The weekly Sabbath never mentioned in Romans 14.

One man "regards one day ABOVE the other while another Regards them ALL" - He who REGARDs the day in Romm 14 - observes it.

No one in Rom 14 "Regards no day".

The reference to days in Rom 14 - is to the Bible-approved annual holy days - of Lev 23.[/QUOTE]

Really?
What part of "one day above another" or "every day alike" is not a reference to all 7 days of the week?
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

One man esteems EVERY DAY and another esteems one day ABOVE another in that Lev 23 list of annual holy days.

"He who esteems the day - OBSERVES the day for the Lord"

The Bible condemns the idea of resting all 7 days from labor "if he will not work - neither let him eat" -- the idea that Paul was condoning such a life style is against the Bible.

What is more - in Gal 4 some days Paul flatly condemns.

So "in context" this is only about the Bible approved annual days of Lev 23.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I forgot that I started this thread....OH MY

So then... back to the OP topic

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 67368061,]on the contrary -- I am very careful in "exactly" what I claim for each of those sections --

for example ...

And of course here they argue their case for "Ten Commandments NOT Abolished" -

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

(Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

As Pope John Paul II argues that "continued" view for the Sabbath Commandment - bent to point to week-day-1


Pope John Paul II

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

In case interest in the OP point persists - we had this detail raised earlier on this thread.


QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 67315751,]

For example Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think anyone ever made the decision to "change from Saturday to Sunday".
In the very early days of the church, there was no authoritative body capable of making that decision for the church, and there is no evidence that they ever did.
We can understand the change without bringing in the assumption that someone had to make a conscious decision.
.

And does Christ approve of such editing of His Commandments?

Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”

9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[bugkiller]

Its about fasting and the issues of them eating meat and not eating meat. Stop cherry picking and read the chapter in context. Verses 1-4 pretty much give away what they were debating about.

Romans 14
The Law of Liberty
14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every dayalike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.

The Law of Love
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Sorry but your chosen offense won't and can't bind me top the law. Since I predate you here you can leave rather than come to my house to be offended and tell me how to live.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Just because you say it does not make it so....you have no scriptural basis for making that claim. There is mountains of evidence that the entire body in Asia minor observed Sabbath AND the feast days of Adonai. You know FULL well that Polycarp and Antecitus argued over Nissan 14. Stop trying to recolor the early church history because it doesnt fit into your argument.

Then cite it.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

And the vegetarian issue in the first century is fully defined by Paul in 1 Cor 8 where he says he would "never eat meat again" if it causes his gentile brother who is fearful of meats offered to idols - to stumble. A brother weak in the faith, who is "accustomed to idols until now" and is newly converted out of it.

I say the same to you about offense.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Nice.

Jesus said -
"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15

Yep He did exactly that. Jesus however didn't say keep the law. See 15:10

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Acts 13 -- gentiles keeping the Sabbath.
Acts 17 - gentiles keeping the Sabbath
Acts 18 - gentiles keeping the Sabbath

Is 56 is a special promise given to gentiles who keep the Sabbath.

Thus says the Lord:


“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND"

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

We "gentiles" like to think that we are a big important part of "mankind" -- as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

I think you're gravely mistaken.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68454484,"]The weekly Sabbath never mentioned in Romans 14.

One man "regards one day ABOVE the other while another Regards them ALL" - He who REGARDs the day in Romm 14 - observes it.

No one in Rom 14 "Regards no day".

The reference to days in Rom 14 - is to the Bible-approved annual holy days - of Lev 23.

One man esteems EVERY DAY and another esteems one day ABOVE another in that Lev 23 list of annual holy days.

"He who esteems the day - OBSERVES the day for the Lord"

The Bible condemns the idea of resting all 7 days from labor "if he will not work - neither let him eat" -- the idea that Paul was condoning such a life style is against the Bible.

What is more - in Gal 4 some days Paul flatly condemns.

So "in context" this is only about the Bible approved annual days of Lev 23.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]Since when is the Sabbath not a day in your frame of reference?

bugkiller

 

[Meowzltov]

What a Jew would say for 100 Alex.

that sounds antisemitic.

 

[Meowzltov]

Just because you say it does not make it so....you have no scriptural basis for making that claim. There is mountains of evidence that the entire body in Asia minor observed Sabbath AND the feast days of Adonai. You know FULL well that Polycarp and Antecitus argued over Nissan 14. Stop trying to recolor the early church history because it doesnt fit into your argument.

I certainly have scriptural evidence: the Council of Jerusalem. Jewish obligations were removed from Gentiles; keeping the Sabbath is certainly not listed as one of their obligations in the letter sent to them.

 

[Cribstyl]

that sounds antisemitic.

That's not me nor my intent. Is it not true that only the Jews rejects the New Testament from the bible? That's all