Discussion Covenants

[Hank77]

so what happened after they went to temple, and then sinned the next day?

I believe they were ultimately saved the same why we are, by grace through faith.
What would happen to you if you repented, then stumbled in sin, and then died before you repented?

Franky, they were still dead...dead means dead...

I don't understand what you mean by this. Would you explain, please?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

I know that Jesus is also the High Priest, but I find it odd that you refer to Him as a High Priest more than the Son of God or as Savior. Maybe it just seems that way, but I do find it odd.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Green above, But that verse in Romans also says, 2 times, they do not have the law, so you need not over press what Paul was saying.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

When God has written the Word on our hearts, do you consider that to be the 10 commandments? I don't believe that. I believe that it is much more than the law. Why would Jesus tell us that the two most important commandments fulfill the law, overriding it and then write the overriden law on our hearts? That seems nonsensical.

 

[Hank77]

I believe that it is much more than the law. Why would Jesus tell us that the two most important commandments fulfill the law, overriding it and then write the overriden law on our hearts? That seems nonsensical.

I would say that He writes the two commandments the He gave us on our heart/ our conscience. Because we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, He will lead us by our conscience. That is why we are told not to harden our heart/mind/ conscience against the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Do not quench the Holy Spirit but walk in the Spirit.

 

[franky67]

If it were a renewed cov, why would the hebrews grieve grace, and trample on the blood, by reverting back to the old cov?

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Froggy you seem to ignore the proof I have given, so I ask you to answer the question I asked on another thread, which is still unanswered yet, I think. "What is the rich root of the Olive tree that we gentile Christians are grafted into ?

 

[Andry]

The only thing new about the New Covenant that the Apostle Paul refers to is that Jesus, the Lamb of God shed His blood for the sins of the world and then took His place as the High Priest. God did not throw out all the blessings and good promises that He'd made. That's like a renewal of vows and the groom saying that he's not going to keep his initial promises after all. He's already promised her everything, other than his vow to love and honor her what can he add that was not on the original? As I've mentioned previously, Christians exude a great majority of the curses, why do you think that is? Could it be that we are not obeying and we are teaching others to no obey too? The covenant changed hands, from a priest who would eventually die, to ONE who would not.

Absolutely not. It's completely new. But unfortunately the understanding of most evangelical believers today.

And just like an old automobile that's no longer made by the manufacturer, a whole industry has sprung up in the church making spare parts on something obsolete that's no longer supported by the manufacturer.

 

[Andry]

When God has written the Word on our hearts, do you consider that to be the 10 commandments? I don't believe that. I believe that it is much more than the law. Why would Jesus tell us that the two most important commandments fulfill the law, overriding it and then write the overriden law on our hearts? That seems nonsensical.

It's not the 10, but nor is it the two.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Absolutely not. It's completely new. But unfortunately the understanding of most evangelical believers today.

And just like an old automobile that's no longer made by the manufacturer, a whole industry has sprung up in the church making spare parts on something obsolete that's no longer supported by the manufacturer.

I disagree Paul does a pretty thorough job of explaining it in the book of Romans. One just has to read it for themselves, section by section without their other books telling them what to believe Paul is saying.

The covenant and what Yeshua did should not be compared to an old auto and it's manufacturer. The things of earth can never compare.

 

[Andry]

I disagree Paul does a pretty thorough job of explaining it in the book of Romans. One just has to read it for themselves, section by section without their other books telling them what to believe Paul is saying.

The covenant and what Yeshua did should not be compared to an old auto and it's manufacturer. The things of earth can never compare.

Yes he does, but so does Jesus. One of the problems we face in western Christianity is that we view Scripture through a Greek or Roman mindset, then seen through the eyes of Augustine, and through our denominational backgrounds such that we sometimes unknowingly see Jesus through the eyes of Paul, rather than the other way around. In some sense, we've "deified" Paul, and humanized Jesus. But he (Paul) struggled and wrestled with truth and with Scripture he had at the time, as much as we do, and recognized he was not always correct.

Jeremiah's prophecy, confirmed by the writer of Hebrews says the new covenant "will not be like" the old. The first mention of the new covenant was at the last supper, or the Passover, confirmed by Jesus. If you understand the importance of the four cups of the Passover, it was about what God was about to do when the Hebrews were leaving Egypt as recorded in Exodus 6:

• The Cup of Sanctification - “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians”
• The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance - “I will deliver you from slavery to them”
• The Cup of Redemption – “I will redeem you with an outstretched arm”
• The Cup of Praise or Restoration – “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God”

It is known as "Four I Wills" as it had all to do with what God was about to do for them, and nothing about what they had to do for God (other than to believe the blood on the door posts). It was God's desire to participate and be involved in their lives relationally, not regulationally. Jesus takes the third cup, the cup of redemption, and affirms the first mention of the new covenant in Scripture, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:20

(It wasn't until the third month of their journey that the law or the Mosaic Covenant was introduced or added - not to show them how to get right with God, but to show them how they couldn't get right with God through rules and regulations. So the Four I Wills shifted to the "10 you musts (or must not)".)

Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

(Empahsis mine - But we were the weak link, try as we might, and could never do the you must or must nots.)

Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

Count the "I wills"....I will put my law in their mind, I will be their God, I will be merciful, and I will remember ther sins no more." This is the truth of the Good News, but unfortunately too good for some of us to dare believe. The "You musts" are no longer, rather "I (God) wills."

And just so there's no confusion, the writer of Hebrews (could have been Paul), ends with, " In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13

God no longer supports the old covenant...its requirements have been been fulfilled, and completed, in Christ and through Christ, and is now obsolete. And in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he even writes, "Having abolished in his flesh (Jesus) the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances..." (Eph 2:15)

Surprisingly (or maybe not), 500 years ago Martin Luther made this astounding statement, "It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether." (His commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians)

Yet the majority of western Christianity keeps making parts for it; instead of bringing freedom it brings bondage, as Jesus said about the Pharisees, "They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden." (Matt 23:4)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yes he does, but so does Jesus. One of the problems we face in western Christianity is that we view Scripture through a Greek or Roman mindset, then seen through the eyes of Augustine, and through our denominational backgrounds such that we sometimes unknowingly see Jesus through the eyes of Paul, rather than the other way around. In some sense, we've "deified" Paul, and humanized Jesus. But he (Paul) struggled and wrestled with truth and with Scripture he had at the time, as much as we do, and recognized he was not always correct.

Jeremiah's prophecy, confirmed by the writer of Hebrews says the new covenant "will not be like" the old. The first mention of the new covenant was at the last supper, or the Passover, confirmed by Jesus. If you understand the importance of the four cups of the Passover, it was about what God was about to do when the Hebrews were leaving Egypt as recorded in Exodus 6:

• The Cup of Sanctification - “I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians”
• The Cup of Judgment or Deliverance - “I will deliver you from slavery to them”
• The Cup of Redemption – “I will redeem you with an outstretched arm”
• The Cup of Praise or Restoration – “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God”

It is known as "Four I Wills" as it had all to do with what God was about to do for them, and nothing about what they had to do for God (other than to believe the blood on the door posts). It was God's desire to participate and be involved in their lives relationally, not regulationally. Jesus takes the third cup, the cup of redemption, and affirms the first mention of the new covenant in Scripture, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:20

(It wasn't until the third month of their journey that the law or the Mosaic Covenant was introduced or added - not to show them how to get right with God, but to show them how they couldn't get right with God through rules and regulations. So the Four I Wills shifted to the "10 you musts (or must not)".)

Heb 8:7
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

(Empahsis mine - But we were the weak link, try as we might, and could never do the you must or must nots.)

Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

Count the "I wills"....I will put my law in their mind, I will be their God, I will be merciful, and I will remember ther sins no more." This is the truth of the Good News, but unfortunately too good for some of us to dare believe. The "You musts" are no longer, rather "I (God) wills."

And just so there's no confusion, the writer of Hebrews (could have been Paul), ends with, " In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13

God no longer supports the old covenant...its requirements have been been fulfilled, and completed, in Christ and through Christ, and is now obsolete. And in Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he even writes, "Having abolished in his flesh (Jesus) the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances..." (Eph 2:15)

Surprisingly (or maybe not), 500 years ago Martin Luther made this astounding statement, "It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether." (His commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians)

Yet the majority of western Christianity keeps making parts for it; instead of bringing freedom it brings bondage, as Jesus said about the Pharisees, "They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden." (Matt 23:4)

Jesus said, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Obviously, to Jesus, the word fulfill does not mean the same thing as destroy since they are used in the same sentence.)


18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (All in the Scriptures has not been fulfilled yet)


19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He did however abolish the dividing wall of hostility, which allowed the Gentiles to come in too.

In Romans Paul stated that we uphold the law, not abolish it.

The religious demands that were crushing the people were not the ones given by God, but the ones added by the Scribes and Pharisees. Again, Paul and Jesus too, makes it very clear where Torah and Gospel mix. The commandments of the Lord are a joy. 1 John 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,". The law given through Moses did not create the dividing wall, the "added on" laws given by the Scribes and Pharisees did. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He fulfilled the law by living it out as God had initiated and intended it to be, not what the Scribes and Pharisees had turned it into.

The only law we are free from is the "law of sin and death". We are no longer bound to the law of our flesh that says we must sin, we are now free to live as God has shown us is right. We can "love the Lord our God with all our strength, soul, and mind" and in doing so, we can and will follow through with loving our neighbor by not murdering, not stealing, respecting our parents, not committing adultery, etc.. Those things are NOT impossible. "I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength." Obedience comes via His strength through us and is a joy and is not burdensome but proof of our freedom through Christ.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Jesus said, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Obviously, to Jesus, the word fulfill does not mean the same thing as destroy since they are used in the same sentence.)


18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (All in the Scriptures has not been fulfilled yet)


19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He did however abolish the dividing wall of hostility, which allowed the Gentiles to come in too.

In Romans Paul stated that we uphold the law, not abolish it.

The religious demands that were crushing the people were not the ones given by God, but the ones added by the Scribes and Pharisees. Again, Paul and Jesus too, makes it very clear where Torah and Gospel mix. The commandments of the Lord are a joy. 1 John 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,". The law given through Moses did not create the dividing wall, the "added on" laws given by the Scribes and Pharisees did. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He fulfilled the law by living it out as God had initiated and intended it to be, not what the Scribes and Pharisees had turned it into.

The only law we are free from is the "law of sin and death". We are no longer bound to the law of our flesh that says we must sin, we are now free to live as God has shown us is right. We can "love the Lord our God with all our strength, soul, and mind" and in doing so, we can and will follow through with loving our neighbor by not murdering, not stealing, respecting our parents, not committing adultery, etc.. Those things are NOT impossible. "I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength." Obedience comes via His strength through us and is a joy and is not burdensome but proof of our freedom through Christ.

The New Covenant is new in how it all now plays out with the new Administrator (High Priest), Jesus. His blood covers once and for all our sins. We no longer have to return over and over again to have our sins forgiven using the blood of sacrificed animals. The instructions God gave us for a happy and prosperous life have not changed. They did however change hands from human High Priests who had to rest and sleep and eventually die (Paul says this several times) to an eternal High Priest who never needs to sleep or rest. Our New High Priest is interceding continually before God for us.

 

[Andry]

Jesus said, "17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Obviously, to Jesus, the word fulfill does not mean the same thing as destroy since they are used in the same sentence.)


18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (All in the Scriptures has not been fulfilled yet)


19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He did however abolish the dividing wall of hostility, which allowed the Gentiles to come in too.

In Romans Paul stated that we uphold the law, not abolish it.

The religious demands that were crushing the people were not the ones given by God, but the ones added by the Scribes and Pharisees. Again, Paul and Jesus too, makes it very clear where Torah and Gospel mix. The commandments of the Lord are a joy. 1 John 5:3 "In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,". The law given through Moses did not create the dividing wall, the "added on" laws given by the Scribes and Pharisees did. Jesus said, "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." He fulfilled the law by living it out as God had initiated and intended it to be, not what the Scribes and Pharisees had turned it into.

The only law we are free from is the "law of sin and death". We are no longer bound to the law of our flesh that says we must sin, we are now free to live as God has shown us is right. We can "love the Lord our God with all our strength, soul, and mind" and in doing so, we can and will follow through with loving our neighbor by not murdering, not stealing, respecting our parents, not committing adultery, etc.. Those things are NOT impossible. "I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength." Obedience comes via His strength through us and is a joy and is not burdensome but proof of our freedom through Christ.

Sure, let's use Paul's examples, reiterating one that I previously posted, and not the full text, simply for brevity:

Having abolished in his flesh (Jesus) the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances..." Eph 2:15

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10:4

Twice Paul says, "All things are lawful" - 1 Cor 10:23, 6:12.

Gal 4
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

With regard to Jesus, I never said he came to destroy the law, but like you, to fulfill.

Under the old covenant, it end result, one would hope - the high priest once a year hoped - was atonement for their sins, IOW, right standing with God. In the new covenant, right standing with God is the starting point. Under the old covenant, it was rules and regulations that we must do. In the new covenant, it's something that he did for us.

The new commandment under the new covenant is simply this: " A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another, as I have loved you.." John 13:34

As he has loved us...hmmm...., This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

This is why the Abrahamic Covenant and all its promises remain valid - because Abraham never made a covenant with God; rather, God made a covenant with Abraham. Had Abraham made a covenant with God, he would have broken it before afternoon tea. That's why God put him to sleep, and God walked through the broken carcasses of the animals himself without Abraham.

And in the new covenant, did we make a covenant with God or did God make a covenant with us? 2 Cor 5:19 above, God was in Christ, IOW, God walked through the broken body of Christ, without our permission, because if it were up to us, we would have broken the covenant over and over again just like in the old covenant, even when synthesized to the two: love God, and love your neighbour. We couldn't do it.

So God says, I'll do it. Love one another, not as yourselves, but love another, as I have loved you. And he defines it further, now this is love - not that you love God, but that he loved us.

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God - that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30 Or, it is because of him, not us, that we are in Christ. And here is the wisdom from God - that Jesus is our righteousness, that Jesus is our holiness, and that Jesus is our redemption. Because if it were up to us, we couldn't make it.

IOW, the new covenant is no longer a list of you musts, but he will. That's the beauty of the Good News, and unfortunately too good to believe for some believers.

 

[franky67]

I believe they were ultimately saved the same why we are, by grace through faith.
What would happen to you if you repented, then stumbled in sin, and then died before you repented?

I don't understand what you mean by this. Would you explain, please?

I'm franky, I think froggy said that

The everlasting one is.......the new cov, Heb 10:9 says Jesus abolished the first cov.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

Again, you're fusing the blessing from Abe, with the old cov, it was not of the old cov, that is a fact. Please study Rom 4, the promise was PRE-circumcision.

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.

It is the same covenant, can't you see that? Jesus fulfilled the law by meeting in His very body, all the requirements of the covenant, and thereby removing the long list of curses from not complying with the law.

Genesis 17:7 God said to Abraham

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant to be God to you and your descendants after you." [ we are Abraham's descendants ]

Psalm 111:5 "...........He will remember His covenant forever"
Psalm 105:8,9 "He has remembered His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations, the covenant which he made with Abraham, and His oath to Issac."

1 Chron. 16:14-17 everlasting covenant

God told Abraham that the blessings were for his descendants, ie, seed, offspring heirs.

Galatians 3:13-14

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us..." See Deut, 28 for a list of the curses.

14, " In order that in Christ Jesus, the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Verse 16 says Christ is the seed of Abraham

verse 19 says If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs [joint heirs with Christ ]
heirs according to promise.

Romans 15:8 says Christ has become a servant to confirm the promises given to the fathers

1 Cor. 1:20 says all the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ.

Froggy, you say the blessings in Galatians 3 are "spiritual blessings only", I say Abraham had his spiritual blessings when he believed God, so everything else he was blessed with in the covenant were in addition to his being made righteous in God's eyes.

Yes, the Covenant God made with His creation is everlasting, as in never ending, God said a thousand generations, ours isn't that many generations yet.

And almost last, but certainly not least is the word "new" in the Greek kainos, meaning something that existed before, but new in quality.

example The automobile called the Edsel, came out some years back, it was new [neos] because it never existed before.

Now the new Buick for 2016, this "new" is kainos, meaning new in quality, or in appearance, ie, we've had Buicks for al long time, but the 2016 Buick has new digital instruments, wi-fi, etc, IOW, it is new and improved, and looks different.

This word kainos is the word God used in every single mention of "new covenant" in the bible, but one, in Hebrews 12:24, and I cannot explain that one.

Now we have the teaching from Paul in Romans 11 where God says that we gentiles who are "wild olive tree branches" are grafted into the Olive tree, and receive from the rich root of the Olive tree.

I have a thread elsewhere on this subject.

 

[Hank77]

I'm franky, I think froggy said that

Frankly vs Franky....

 

[Andry]

Sorry Franky, the Abrahamic Covenant is not the same as the Mosaic Covenant. That's Exegesis 101.

 

[Hank77]

It is the same covenant, can't you see that?

Are you saying the NC is the same as the one made with Abram/Abraham or are you saying that the NC is the same one made at Mt Sinai?

 

[Truthfrees]

John 3:23 says 2 commands, love God, believe, love the brethren etc.

Jesus was not talking about the full Mosaic code. These verses show the law was a burden.



This is what Jesus, Paul, Peter and James, said about the law. The law that James and Peter, did not want to burden the church with, as Peter called it a YOKE, in Acts 15. All agreeing with Paul, who in Galatians 2:4, said we did not let them enslave you with law.



Jesus..
Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

James….same wordage as Jesus in Revelation.
Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:


Peter..
Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Paul..
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.


James...don't trouble the church by putting the full Torah on them.
Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

The problem with thinking the 4 laws of Acts 15:21 are ALL the Gentiles have to obey is:

The NT is filled with MANY more laws that are an exact quote of OT laws not included in the "4".

Love the Lord with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself are 2 of the 10 which aren't included. Neither is don't murder or lie or steal.

If you copy and paste every instruction Paul, Peter, John, or James gives, you'll end up with quotes from all over in the OT law.

Also there's NO RED words saying the law has passed away or will pass away. This makes the way people misinterpret Paul and Acts 15:21 in opposition to Jesus.

The more likely explanation is that the NT agrees with Jesus who agrees with the OT law, and any interpretation against this would be mistaken.

Jesus never calls the OT laws a yoke of slavery, therefore the scriptures you quoted must be talking about something else.

Jesus calls some religious leaders on their man-made laws nullifying God's laws. This is what Jesus is talking about as being burdensome, slavery, etc.

 

[Truthfrees]

But law can mean principle, and the principle of law, worked death. 2 Cor 3, it was a ministry of death, and see my siggy, you will see the principle of law working death.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

That's why I gave the extra scripture references.

If you read them they're clear in their meaning.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So God says, I'll do it. Love one another, not as yourselves, but love another, as I have loved you. And he defines it further, now this is love - not that you love God, but that he loved us.

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God - that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30 Or, it is because of him, not us, that we are in Christ. And here is the wisdom from God - that Jesus is our righteousness, that Jesus is our holiness, and that Jesus is our redemption. Because if it were up to us, we couldn't make it.

IOW, the new covenant is no longer a list of you musts, but he will. That's the beauty of the Good News, and unfortunately too good to believe for some believers.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sure, let's use Paul's examples, reiterating one that I previously posted, and not the full text, simply for brevity:

Having abolished in his flesh (Jesus) the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances..." Eph 2:15

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10:4

Twice Paul says, "All things are lawful" - 1 Cor 10:23, 6:12.

Gal 4
Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

With regard to Jesus, I never said he came to destroy the law, but like you, to fulfill.

Under the old covenant, it end result, one would hope - the high priest once a year hoped - was atonement for their sins, IOW, right standing with God. In the new covenant, right standing with God is the starting point. Under the old covenant, it was rules and regulations that we must do. In the new covenant, it's something that he did for us.

The new commandment under the new covenant is simply this: " A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another, as I have loved you.." John 13:34

As he has loved us...hmmm...., This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:8

This is why the Abrahamic Covenant and all its promises remain valid - because Abraham never made a covenant with God; rather, God made a covenant with Abraham. Had Abraham made a covenant with God, he would have broken it before afternoon tea. That's why God put him to sleep, and God walked through the broken carcasses of the animals himself without Abraham.

And in the new covenant, did we make a covenant with God or did God make a covenant with us? 2 Cor 5:19 above, God was in Christ, IOW, God walked through the broken body of Christ, without our permission, because if it were up to us, we would have broken the covenant over and over again just like in the old covenant, even when synthesized to the two: love God, and love your neighbour. We couldn't do it.

So God says, I'll do it. Love one another, not as yourselves, but love another, as I have loved you. And he defines it further, now this is love - not that you love God, but that he loved us.

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God - that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30 Or, it is because of him, not us, that we are in Christ. And here is the wisdom from God - that Jesus is our righteousness, that Jesus is our holiness, and that Jesus is our redemption. Because if it were up to us, we couldn't make it.

IOW, the new covenant is no longer a list of you musts, but he will. That's the beauty of the Good News, and unfortunately too good to believe for some believers.

I agree, it's no longer a list of "you must". We are free to do whatever we want. However, the wants we continuously do show where we are in relation to God. Also, to be under the law one must believe that keeping the law saves them, and it does not save them. One must trust in what Jesus did on the cross in order to be saved. Once saved, our actions follow HIM. I don't follow His instructions (I'm not perfect at it but He sees my heart) because I "must" but because I love Him because He loved me. It is a pleasure to do what He has said is best for me. As Paul said, (paraphrased) "when you instinctively do what His laws say it is proof that His laws are written on your heart".

Jesus was not the end of the laws set forth by God but the laws set forth by the scribes and pharisees. I believe that because He said "Heaven and earth will pass away before even one jot or tittle is taken from the law", plus that's what He was constantly getting on to them about. Their added on laws were burdening the people, not the ones where Jesus said, "My burden is light and my yolk is easy". So, since earth is still here, He's either a liar or what He said was truth and if what He said was truth, and I believe it was, then we need to stop saying He's abolished God's laws which He and Paul both upheld. Paul said "God forbid" that they don't keep the law, he said they actually upheld it." So again, he is either double-minded, saying one thing here and another there, or we have misunderstood something.

*Sure, Paul says all things are lawful, however he also says, in the same verse, "all things are profitable". So do we want to just do whatever we want because it's "lawful", or do we want to find out from God what is profitable and do that instead? Which choice makes us more like Jesus?

Note that I do believe that most of us who are Born Again, are doing instinctively most of what God wants, however, there are some parts where they have believed their pastors/teachers instead of studying the scripture for themselves and they have allowed the flimsy explanations to satisfy their questions.

You seem like a very learned person. I would recommend though that you study without your commentaries and just read the scripture in sections and see that in a great many areas, it's not saying at all what we've been told it says.

In that same scripture where Jesus says that heaven and earth will pass away before Torah does (as far as I know earth is still here) it says that "anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to break them is counted as the least in heaven". A very serious matter indeed.

Matthew 10:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ​

I think I should back out of this convo now. I've said enough to hopefully get people thinking and doing their own studying. Be like the Bereans and study to see if what you've been told is the truth or not. Don't just stick to your trusted little group, their all human too and might be wrong. You might be surprised how many differing views I found even among the anti-Torah group. Remember, no one else will stand before God and answer for your own actions, good and bad, except you.

*made changes to better match scripture