The difference between Liberals and Conservatives

[jayem]

QUOTE="Givemeareason, post: 68432769, member: 376962"]I was just reading that it may depend more on neurological factors.

“Political Orientations Are Correlated With Brain Structure in Young Adults,” was based on the results of MRI scans on participants and it is noteworthy that the results of an MRI cannot possibly be biased, but they can reveal pathological anomalies in the human brain. The results of the MRI studies show that “conservative students had a larger amygdala than liberals. Conversely, the anterior cingulate cortex of liberal students had more gray matter than conservatives.” According to biological facts, “The amygdala is active during states of fear and anxiety, and the anterior cingulate cortex is the region of the brain that helps humans cope with complexity and use abstract reasoning.” What that means is that specifically speaking, “Liberals’ brains are biologically more able to handle complex thought, and conservatives base their beliefs on fear.”[/QUOTE]

Assuming there are neuroanatomic findings that correlate with politics doesn't tell us if these are the causes of such views, or are effects of learning.

Though I'm reminded of Gilbert & Sullivan song:

I often think it's comical--Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive--Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!

--Iolanthe, Act II

 

[The Outlier]

I have met the same number of dumb conservatives as I have dumb liberals. In both cases they are people who over-react to what they hear if its from the other side and blindly believe everything they hear if its from their side. I would like to add to my last post that conservatives trust an individual with a gun, but liberals trust a group with a gun. Liberalism is more group-centered and conservatism (or more specifically libertarianism) is more individual centered. I guess I tend to trust the individual more than the groups since I tend to insist on the right to be an independent thinker, which not only makes it hard to fit in a group, but peer pressure can discourage individual thinking. That being said, there are certain things you can only accomplish in groups. In the Bible you have both individual and group thinking. The church is a group. But the early church rebelled against a bigger group- Rome. Christianity is to the world as an individual is to a group, even though the church is a family-oriented group.

 

[Givemeareason]

I have met the same number of dumb conservatives as I have dumb liberals. In both cases they are people who over-react to what they hear if its from the other side and blindly believe everything they hear if its from their side. I would like to add to my last post that conservatives trust an individual with a gun, but liberals trust a group with a gun. Liberalism is more group-centered and conservatism (or more specifically libertarianism) is more individual centered. I guess I tend to trust the individual more than the groups since I tend to insist on the right to be an independent thinker, which not only makes it hard to fit in a group, but peer pressure can discourage individual thinking. That being said, there are certain things you can only accomplish in groups. In the Bible you have both individual and group thinking. The church is a group. But the early church rebelled against a bigger group- Rome. Christianity is to the world as an individual is to a group, even though the church is a family-oriented group.

How would you know if they were dumb in either case. Dont conservatives often classify people they don't understand as liberals. For example, aren't new age people considered liberal? And if so, that couldn't be farther from the truth IMO. My feeling of dumb are people who make no effort to find out the truth. They just accept what they are told. Liberal people as i see them are often more open thinkers and try to see things from different points of view. It is not the position one takes but how they arrive at the position. Many identify as one or the other but often hold conflicting views. Liberalism is more of a state of mind i think but politics and religion have become so polarized that the two words carry stereotypes that force people into accepting positions.

 

[Gracchus]

Well, one opinion is: "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." --- ---John Kenneth Galbraith

I generally point out that liberals do bad things because they don't live up to their ideals. Conservatives do bad things because they do.

 

[The Outlier]

How would you know if they were dumb in either case. Dont conservatives often classify people they don't understand as liberals. For example, aren't new age people considered liberal? And if so, that couldn't be farther from the truth IMO. My feeling of dumb are people who make no effort to find out the truth. They just accept what they are told. Liberal people as i see them are often more open thinkers and try to see things from different points of view. It is not the position one takes but how they arrive at the position. Many identify as one or the other but often hold conflicting views. Liberalism is more of a state of mind i think but politics and religion have become so polarized that the two words carry stereotypes that force people into accepting positions.

I classify people I need to understand as people I need to understand. Both liberals and conservatives can be close minded. There is a quote (by a person unknown) that says its not hard to argue with a smart person. Its extremely hard to argue with a dumb person. I would use the word indoctrinated vs dumb. If I got into an argument with someone who spent all their lives in North Korea, I would have a very hard time convincing them that I was not an evil capitalist pig who was out to destroy them. Why would it be hard- because everything they were taught is a lie- or a twisted truth. There was a kid in high school (and I'm dating myself) who was an exchange student from Russia in about 1994. He had trouble in history class because he was taught that Russia won every single military battle they ever encountered. He was not dumb- he was indoctrinated. There is a difference.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I would also venture to say it sounds like liberals are probably better adapted for a peaceful modern world.

Wake me up when that world arrives.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I was just reading that it may depend more on neurological factors.

“Political Orientations Are Correlated With Brain Structure in Young Adults,” was based on the results of MRI scans on participants and it is noteworthy that the results of an MRI cannot possibly be biased, but they can reveal pathological anomalies in the human brain. The results of the MRI studies show that “conservative students had a larger amygdala than liberals. Conversely, the anterior cingulate cortex of liberal students had more gray matter than conservatives.” According to biological facts, “The amygdala is active during states of fear and anxiety, and the anterior cingulate cortex is the region of the brain that helps humans cope with complexity and use abstract reasoning.” What that means is that specifically speaking, “Liberals’ brains are biologically more able to handle complex thought, and conservatives base their beliefs on fear.”

What that means is, specifically speaking, that young people, whose brains aren't fully developed, and who have little life experience of their own, and who were probably in a liberal college at the time of this research, are thus and such (just to be clear).

 

[Gracchus]

I was just reading that it may depend more on neurological factors.

“Political Orientations Are Correlated With Brain Structure in Young Adults,” was based on the results of MRI scans on participants and it is noteworthy that the results of an MRI cannot possibly be biased, but they can reveal pathological anomalies in the human brain. The results of the MRI studies show that “conservative students had a larger amygdala than liberals. Conversely, the anterior cingulate cortex of liberal students had more gray matter than conservatives.” According to biological facts, “The amygdala is active during states of fear and anxiety, and the anterior cingulate cortex is the region of the brain that helps humans cope with complexity and use abstract reasoning.” What that means is that specifically speaking, “Liberals’ brains are biologically more able to handle complex thought, and conservatives base their beliefs on fear.”

What that means is, specifically speaking, that young people, whose brains aren't fully developed, and who have little life experience of their own, and who were probably in a liberal college at the time of this research, are thus and such (just to be clear).

No, OldWiseGuy, what it means, specifically speaking, is that conservatives make decisions with the amygdala, part of the paleomammalian (primitive) brain, whereas liberals make decisions in the forebrain. The amygdala is involved in the fight/flight response, and the decisions conservatives make are "instinctive" and not moderated by the rational frontal cortex. Conservatives tend to react to any challenge or unfamiliar situation with fear and anger. They can't really help it.
Note that you reacted to "unpleasant" information by misinterpreting the the findings and attacking the "liberals" as juvenile.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, OldWiseGuy, what it means, specifically speaking, is that conservatives make decisions with the amygdala, part of the paleomammalian (primitive) brain, whereas liberals make decisions in the forebrain. The amygdala is involved in the fight/flight response, and the decisions conservatives make are "instinctive" and not moderated by the rational frontal cortex. Conservatives tend to react to any challenge or unfamiliar situation with fear and anger. They can't really help it.
Note that you reacted to "unpleasant" information by misinterpreting the the findings and attacking the "liberals" as juvenile.

Did you detect any fear and anger in my response?

 

[pdudgeon]

I was just reading that it may depend more on neurological factors.

“Political Orientations Are Correlated With Brain Structure in Young Adults,” was based on the results of MRI scans on participants and it is noteworthy that the results of an MRI cannot possibly be biased, but they can reveal pathological anomalies in the human brain. The results of the MRI studies show that “conservative students had a larger amygdala than liberals. Conversely, the anterior cingulate cortex of liberal students had more gray matter than conservatives.” According to biological facts, “The amygdala is active during states of fear and anxiety, and the anterior cingulate cortex is the region of the brain that helps humans cope with complexity and use abstract reasoning.” What that means is that specifically speaking, “Liberals’ brains are biologically more able to handle complex thought, and conservatives base their beliefs on fear.”

interesting, but did the study give the average age of the participants?
since brains don't mature until the mid 20's that might be a factor in the results.

and two more factors would be social conditioning as well as environment.

 

[Albion]

Sounds like the differences are even genetic. This explains a lot.

What it "explains" is that even the most far-fetched theories are going to find a home with someone or other.

"Sounds like the differences are (even) genetic."

 

[Gracchus]

Did you detect any fear and anger in my response?

You still can't let yourself understand plain English.
"Note that you reacted to 'unpleasant' information by misinterpreting the the findings and attacking the 'liberals' as juvenile."

 

[Gracchus]

interesting, but did the study give the average age of the participants?
since brains don't mature until the mid 20's that might be a factor in the results.
and two more factors would be social conditioning as well as environment.

First of all the differences were detected in "students" who would tend to cluster in age. Second the differences were physical. Would social conditioning or environment affect the anatomy of the brain? Even if it were so, the results of the study remain: There are anatomical differences between the brains of conservatives and the brains of liberals.

What it "explains" is that even the most far-fetched theories are going to find a home with someone or othe
"Sounds like the differences are (even) genetic."

The study was not putting forth a theory, it was presenting a result. Again, we see a conservative brain denying and misrepresenting facts without contesting the evidence with counter-evidence.

 

[Albion]

The study was not putting forth a theory, it was presenting a result.

Which caused a theory to be formed.

 

[Gracchus]

Which caused a theory to be formed.

No!
It presented an obvious implication which may lead to a testable hypothesis.
Still, the obvious implication is that conservatives are, in this instance, more like P. troglodytes than liberals are, in that liberals may intervene in the simple fight/flight reaction by rational consideration in the fore-brain.
That is not a theory, it is a possibility.
We do see that police, who are overwhelmingly conservative and not supposed to run away, have a tendency to shoot first and leave it others to ask questions later. They don't stop to ask if that is a kid with a toy, they just react from the amygdala, and shoot.
Moreover, they tend to see all conflict or confrontation in black and white terms of "us versus them", "us" being cops and their tribe, and "them" being perps, or everyone who is not a cop. Those who see and consider both side in a controversy are "liberals" and "weak", and thus objects of contempt.
For the conservative mind, power comes from on high, and must be obeyed, which is why, when they are not immediately obeyed by those "lower" in the "chain of command" they tend to take personal offense and regard it as defiance of the authority granted by their superiors. So, as we used to say in the army, "..it slides downhill".

 

[Albion]

No!
It presented an obvious implication which may lead to a testable hypothesis.

Well, it may have seemed "obvious" to you because you wanted to believe it, but really, the notion of there being a "genetic" connection--even if the analysis of how Conservatives and Liberals think had been correct--is fanciful.

 

[Gracchus]

Well, it may have seemed "obvious" to you because you wanted to believe it,...

And why would I want to believe it? Or is that just your amygdala going into attack mode?

... but really, the notion of there being a "genetic" connection--even if the analysis of how Conservatives and Liberals think had been correct ...

Do you have evidence contradicting the findings of the study? I note the use of the past perfect form and subjunctive mood as if the study has been refuted. Has it?

... --is fanciful.

So, you think that there may be a reason excepting genetics why the amygdala is larger in conservatives than in liberals, and conversely, that the anterior cingulate cortex is more developed in liberals? That might be testable. Until it is tested it should not in either case be summarily dismissed.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You still can't let yourself understand plain English.
"Note that you reacted to 'unpleasant' information by misinterpreting the the findings and attacking the 'liberals' as juvenile."

Interesting that you know more about what I said than I do.

 

[Gracchus]

Interesting that you know more about what I said than I do.

Indeed!
The study said that the amygdalas of conservative students were larger than those of liberals, and the anterior cingulate cortices of liberals were more developed than those of conservatives. It was pointed out that these differences might very well be genetic since no environmental or social influences are suspected of causing such changes in cerebral anatomy.
You misinterpreted the plain findings of the study, because, one supposes, the implications frightened you, or offended your self esteem. Just by making such a mistake, you branded yourself a conservative. The implications of the finding are offensive or frightening, so the study must be wrong. Here we have an interesting intersection of the conservative inability to appreciate nuance and the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Please note that what the study implies, and it does warrant further study, is that the conservative tendency to impulsive and often irrational action can be explained in terms of biology and evolution. It is not anybody's fault. Perhaps someday we will be able to correct it, like a clubfoot or a cleft palate.

 

[The Outlier]

When you really think about it, the whole idea that an entire belief system is genetic resembles social darwinism- regardless of whether its held by early 20th century republicans or 21st century liberals. Its still the same flawed idea. Its still essentially prejudice.