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col 2:16 the accurate interpretation and the final word on the text

tall73

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Of course those texts are talking about final judgement. So was John. It was the day he saw the final judgement. So "Lord's Day" in Rev 1 has nothing to do with a day of the week. PERIOD.

Then why did you draw the contrast with the genitive construction used in all the other instances when speaking of the day of judgment?

You seemed to be arguing against yourself, as you presented the best argument against your own assertion. The constructions are not the same.

And the parallel construction speaking of the Lord's supper, WAS a celebration that pertained to the Lord. So it is not by any means outside the meaning of the phrase to see it as a celebration.
 
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Dave-W

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OK - what I am trying to dismiss is the early church fathers' assertion that "day of the Lord" meant Sunday. They put it back into the genitive which puts it back into the OT prophesied day of destruction.

So their mistake was 2 fold: 1) as an adjective it had no tie to any specific day; and 2) they put it back into the genitive which tied it into the day of destruction.
 
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tall73

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OK - what I am trying to dismiss is the early church fathers' assertion that "day of the Lord" meant Sunday. They put it back into the genitive which puts it back into the OT prophesied day of destruction.

So their mistake was 2 fold: 1) as an adjective it had no tie to any specific day; and 2) they put it back into the genitive which tied it into the day of destruction.

So to clarify, in Revelation, you do not think it has anything to do with the day of judgment?
 
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Dave-W

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So to clarify, in Revelation, you do not think it has anything to do with the day of judgment?
Unsure; but I maintain it MIGHT mean that, given all the destruction John saw on that day in his vision.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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First of all, I do not expect you to listen to me.. you are a big boy, that is your prerogative. Just as I can choose to listen to you... or not. Or agree with you... or not.

What makes you think worldly qualifications or theology training qualifies anyone as an authority? I take my authority from God's Word. I think that historical account is important but only if it corroborates scripture... not in and of itself. Otherwise, I could read historical documents like the book of Judas and think it has something important to say.

I agree with you that John was not talking about the day of judgement when he was in vision... the only reference I have, Biblically is what was recorded in three of the gospels and what John would have heard and known. I do not take any credit for wisdom in trying to figure this out on my own, the Bible clearly lays it out for those that will see. The Lord claims the Sabbath as His (sanctified and made Holy at creation...the seal of His authority) and therefore John was in vision on that day.

It's obvious that you do not believe Adventist doctrine as I am not the only one that espouses this understanding within the church... maybe your unbiblical reasoning would be better appreciated in another denom's forum.
First of all let me say thank-you to Tall73 for backing me up on this even though we are on opposite sides of the Sabbath issue. secondly I would like to clarify my position. I still believe in the Sabbath, I believe the SDA's Church's purpose is to resurrect Sabbath keeping in the entire christian world. That being said, in order to do that, there is going to have to be a change. The SDA church is wrong about some issues surrounding the Sabbath-Lord's day issue. Hence these threads's. Thirdly,I want to address the issue of quallifications. I have a B.A. in theology and have taken the Masters classes from Gorden-Conwell Theological Seminary, Westminister Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary and Covenant Theological Seminary. I have read over 35000 pages on the subject of SDA theology, History and the issue surrounding them. I have had almost 10 years of discussion on these topics. I know Greek and Some Hebrew. i have read ALL the reference to the Sabbath & the Lord's day in the early Church. Tall73 has similar qualification. Forthly As far as "worldly" quallification are concerned there is NO SUCH THING. there are the quallified and the non-quallifed. Fifthly, let me come stright to the point, There is a problem with EastCoastRemenant's Posting style and attitude. ECR has a problem knowing everything. Put it another way, ECR has read nothing but acts like he knows everything. ECR refuses to engage in anything that would be consider resonable or normal( see the previous converstation Tall73 for an example of resonable conversation) ECR has not demonstrated that he has a basic understanding of the issues or problems surrounding this topic. Nor has he shown an desire to learn. Almost every interaction I have had with him on this forum makes him out to be some kind of expert, that somehow we have to please HIM, HE is the Final arbriter of right and wrong. He say it is not about him, but it always come down to him and not the information. ECR has no training and has put in no time and make no effort to read over the material. Some how He thinks that not knowing or not having any information is a virtue and those who do have the information and have put in the time to learn are just a bunch of apostates & buffoons. ECR is only repeating what he was been told by other who did not study for themselves. He has no quallification, yet want's to teach other. Let me make very clear, I am not saying that he should defer to me or anyone else just to defer, but when those who have put in the time and are on the same side are saying there is a problem He might want to stop, look and listen. I hope the ECR will in the future take a more humble tone coming
 
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tall73

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OK - what I am trying to dismiss is the early church fathers' assertion that "day of the Lord" meant Sunday. They put it back into the genitive which puts it back into the OT prophesied day of destruction.

So their mistake was 2 fold: 1) as an adjective it had no tie to any specific day; and 2) they put it back into the genitive which tied it into the day of destruction.

I suppose that we would have to first decide whether they were even referencing Revelation, or the phrase they used grew up independently.

Now, why do you think that the phrase in Revelation could not refer to a particular day of the week that pertains to the Lord?

The parallel phrase Lord's supper, or supper pertaining to the Lord may indicate this type of usage is not that unusual.
 
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Dave-W

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Now, why do you think that the phrase in Revelation could not refer to a particular day of the week that pertains to the Lord?
First because there is no direct indication in the immediate text that it does. We need to go to external sources (writings by the ECFs) to get that linkage.

Second - if it DOES refer to a specific celebration day, which one? The Sabbath? (as an observant Jew, John would still be observing a Saturday Sabbath) Resurrection day? Passover? Pentecost? Yom Kippur? Tabernacles? Again we are reliant on the ECF writings to tell us.

And we know they had an agenda: to make the church look as different from Judaism as possible to avoid the persecution Rome brought down on the Jews following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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God honors those who honor him by obedience to his precepts. John, the beloved disciple, was banished to the isle of Patmos for his faithfulness. "I John," he writes, "who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the Word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Did John here mean Sunday?--There is but one day called the Lord's day, and that is the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath instituted at creation. God created the world in six days, and on the seventh he rested and was refreshed. He blessed and sanctified this day, and set it apart to be observed as a memorial of creation. And on the seventh day John heard behind him "a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches." "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man." Thus Christ honored John for his steadfast obedience to him. {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 13}
 
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Adventist Dissident

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First because there is no direct indication in the immediate text that it does. We need to go to external sources (writings by the ECFs) to get that linkage.
that is a problem Why? Why are we to trust you more then we are to trust those who herd it directly from Christ or the Apostle's? The is what the ECF's do they establish track record.

Second - if it DOES refer to a specific celebration day, which one? The Sabbath? (as an observant Jew, John would still be observing a Saturday Sabbath) Resurrection day? Passover? Pentecost? Yom Kippur? Tabernacles? Again we are reliant on the ECF writings to tell us.
The problem is that here is that you are still buying into an either or choice either Sabbath or Lord's day. It is a false choice. As a Jew they observed the 7th day Sabbath, but what you have not been told is that they also believed the 8th day had significance, the 8th day was the sign of new beginnings. circumcision 8th day (new life), 7 days of passover then the 8th day first fruits (new harvest- )7weeks+1(49day +1=50)= pentacost, Giving of new Law, 6000 years of lying of sin,(7000) 1000 years of peace on earth, 8000 (new heavens & new earth. This is the basis of the Lord's day. In fact the ECF directly reference FF and PC when speaking of the Lord's day. Now catch this, according to the ECF's they DID NOT see the Lord's day as a SABBATH or a replacement for the sabbath, They saw it as a FESTIVAL. A festival did not follow the rules of Sabbath, the restrictions on work and food preparation were lessened.

And we know they had an agenda: to make the church look as different from Judaism as possible to avoid the persecution Rome brought down on the Jews following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.
Exactly how do we know this?
 
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Adventist Dissident

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God honors those who honor him by obedience to his precepts. John, the beloved disciple, was banished to the isle of Patmos for his faithfulness. "I John," he writes, "who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the Word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Did John here mean Sunday?--There is but one day called the Lord's day, and that is the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath instituted at creation. God created the world in six days, and on the seventh he rested and was refreshed. He blessed and sanctified this day, and set it apart to be observed as a memorial of creation. And on the seventh day John heard behind him "a great voice, as of a trumpet saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches." "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man." Thus Christ honored John for his steadfast obedience to him. {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 13} [/QUOTE]
so your source of authority is NOT the bible, but the False prophetess? The ECF are more reliable then her.
 
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Dave-W

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so your source of authority is NOT the bible, but the False prophetess? The ECF are more reliable then her.
I do not take White as an authority. But I would very hesitant to call her "false."

I take the writings of the "sect of the Nazoreans" that Eusubius decried and condemned as a better picture of what actually went on. They were the remnant of the Jewish Believers in Messiah. I have only seen part of the research. If you want more I suggest you look up the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute and ask around there for the results of the Bar Kochba revolt. Why the gentile church decided to change the sabbath to sunday, to do away with dietary restrictions, etc.

It was all to avoid persecution. BTW - the results of that persecution are still on the front page today. Jews were forcibly removed from the Roman province of Judea and spread across the empire. Arabs from various tribes and locations were forcibly recruited to repopulate the province which Rome renamed "Palistina" (after the Philistines,) and then called the people "Palestinians."
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I don't take White as an authority. But I would very hesitant to call her "false."
I used to think the same thing until i studied here writings and her life.

I take the writings of the "sect of the Nazoreans" that Eusubius decried and condemned as a better picture of what actually went on. They were the remnant of the Jewish Believers in Messiah. I have only seen part of the research. If you want more I suggest you look up the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute and ask around there for the results of the Bar Kochba revolt. Why the gentile church decided to change the sabbath to sunday, to do away with dietary restrictions, etc.
I got most of my ideas from the Messanics, they are really helpful in understanding the sabbath. I have come to the same conclusion as they did on subject. I HOPE you are clear, I am not saying that bar kochba had nothing to do with the change, just not the orgins of it.
 
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tall73

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First because there is no direct indication in the immediate text that it does. We need to go to external sources (writings by the ECFs) to get that linkage.

If I said I was doing something on ______ day I would think it has something to do with a specific day.

We have to have the ECF to get the specific linkage to Sunday, but I do not see that we need the ECF to think he is talking about a particular day.

Second - if it DOES refer to a specific celebration day, which one? The Sabbath? (as an observant Jew, John would still be observing a Saturday Sabbath) Resurrection day? Passover? Pentecost? Yom Kippur? Tabernacles? Again we are reliant on the ECF writings to tell us.

Hence why I don't draw a definite conclusion. I just wonder why not being able to discern the specific day would rule out that it was talking about a particular day.

I have heard arguments for it being Sunday, Sabbath, Passover, etc.
Some may be stronger than others. But it is not a coincidence that so many try to argue for it meaning a particular day. The phrase seems to suggest it, which is why I cannot agree with your first point.

And we know they had an agenda: to make the church look as different from Judaism as possible to avoid the persecution Rome brought down on the Jews following the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad.

Not all did. Polycarp was a disciple of John and opposed Rome in the Quartodeciman controversy.

Either way, that is involving the question of "which" day, rather than the implausibility of it referring to a day.

Also you have not addressed the parallel to the Lord's supper, which is the only similar phrase in the NT, and did point to a specific ritual.
 
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tall73

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I do not take White as an authority. But I would very hesitant to call her "false."

If by hesitant you mean study for years on years trying to defend her before finally coming to the conclusion that you cannot reconcile what she says with the Scriptures--then yes, Ice and I both were hesitant. However, we still got there, because you cannot reconcile some of her statements with Scripture.

Now for most people that is not a problem, but when she says all of her public works were not her opinion, but from God, that is a problem.

Not all that she says is wrong, not by any means. However, when testing a prophet the test is not whether they get some things right. That is probably all for a different thread though.

The point being here that Ellen White's comments are not an authority that Ice would recognize. He gives more weight to the ECF than to Ellen White.
 
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tall73

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I do not take White as an authority. But I would very hesitant to call her "false."

I take the writings of the "sect of the Nazoreans" that Eusubius decried and condemned as a better picture of what actually went on. They were the remnant of the Jewish Believers in Messiah. I have only seen part of the research. If you want more I suggest you look up the Messianic Jewish Theological Institute and ask around there for the results of the Bar Kochba revolt. Why the gentile church decided to change the sabbath to sunday, to do away with dietary restrictions, etc.

It was all to avoid persecution.

This too is not the whole picture. You have to look at both the ECF and the Ebionites, and the Nazarenes etc. Unfortunately most of the material of the latter is preserved only in the texts that treat them as heretics, such as Epiphanius (up until recently hard to get in an English translation), Irenaeus, etc.

I agree that the Nazarenes were likely the descendants of those who fled to Pella, and were following the Jewish ways of the Jerusalem church. These were Jews who received the Messiah, and practiced their faith in that way. Multiple sources refer to a gospel that was present with them, and some refer to Matthew particularly providing a gospel to them in the Hebrew language (which some take to be Aramaic, but let's not get into that now).

We also see early on though some hints that the Acts council was the actual impetus, not persecution. In Acts 21 James did NOT expect of the gentiles the same law observance as he did for the Jewish believers, both in Jerusalem and the diaspora. This was not due to persecution, but the decision handed down.

These groups continued to exist in harmony for some time, and later things went down hill. For instance in Justin martyr's time he still refers to those who hold to the same thought as James, observing the law, etc. as Christians, but now has come to hold them as deluded and weak minded. Essentially Justin would not have consigned James to hell, but would consider him heretical. Though of course, according to the council he was not heretical at all. Now by Chrysostom's time relations were off the charts bad between those Christians who endeavored to have any connection to Judaism. You can see a progression from Acts, to Justin, to Chrysostom. And while some defend Chrysostom saying he was using an example of hyperbole in his rhetoric, by nearly any measure he was incredibly hostile to those wanting anything to do with Judaism.


BTW - the results of that persecution are still on the front page today. Jews were forcibly removed from the Roman province of Judea and spread across the empire. Arabs from various tribes and locations were forcibly recruited to repopulate the province which Rome renamed "Palistina" (after the Philistines,) and then called the people "Palestinians."

There is no doubt that Hadrian's drastic measures caused some to further distance themselves from Jewish elements such as circumcision, etc. However, the gentile and Jewish practices were different long before that, and the decision in Acts allowed for that. One did not have to be circumcised and observe the law of Moses to be a Christian.

On the other hand, a Jewish Christian did not have to live like a gentile either, and that was so odd a notion that no one even needed to address it in Acts 15. However, James does raise the issue in Acts 21, due to what some were saying about Paul.

What worked well in the early church, each working to spread the message of Christ in their own sphere, started to break down later when there were fewer Jewish Christians around, and they tended to be isolated in a few areas. And the destruction of Jerusalem changed the centers of power in the church to gentile lands. The lack of contact between the groups was not good.

By the way, not all that Epiphanius or Iranaeus said about the Nazarenes was negative in any case. And their gospel was of some interest to various church fathers.
 
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Dave-W

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On the other hand, a Jewish Christian did not have to live like a gentile either, and that was so odd a notion that no one even needed to address it in Acts 15. However, James does raise the issue in Acts 21, due to what some were saying about Paul.
That is a weak way of saying it. The Jews have a specific calling and requirements that are not nullified in the New Covenant. Paul lists some of them in Rom 3. A Jewish believer should NEVER EVER "live like a gentile." It is a violation of that calling. The Jerusalem congregation understood that and that is why they were so outraged by the reports that Paul had been teaching Jews to abandon Moses.
 
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Dave-W

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I agree that the Nazarenes were likely the descendants of those who fled to Pella, and were following the Jewish ways of the Jerusalem church. These were Jews who received the Messiah, and practiced their faith in that way. Multiple sources refer to a gospel that was present with them, and some refer to Matthew particularly providing a gospel to them in the Hebrew language (which some take to be Aramaic, but let's not get into that now).
Eusubius writing in the early 300s condemned the Ebionites as heretics. Then he starts in on the Nazarenes. He admits that doctrinally they were orthodox, but in practice were indistinguishable from Jews; and that alone was reason to make them heretics as well. His writings on this means the Nazarenes were NOT invited to the First Nicene Conference (ad 325) and there were NO JEWISH VOICES involved in those discussions and decisions. (which ignores the fact that Paul said the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God - Rom 3)
 
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tall73

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Eusubius writing in the early 300s condemned the Ebionites as heretics. Then he starts in on the Nazarenes. He admits that doctrinally they were orthodox, but in practice were indistinguishable from Jews; and that alone was reason to make them heretics as well. His writings on this means the Nazarenes were NOT invited to the First Nicene Conference (ad 325) and there were NO JEWISH VOICES involved in those discussions and decisions. (which ignores the fact that Paul said the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God - Rom 3)


Agreed, but that is hundreds of years down the road from Acts where the practice was separated. The problem was not the Acts agreement but that the churches after the destruction of Jerusalem didn't have much interaction, and grew apart.
 
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tall73

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That is a weak way of saying it. The Jews have a specific calling and requirements that are not nullified in the New Covenant. Paul lists some of them in Rom 3. A Jewish believer should NEVER EVER "live like a gentile." It is a violation of that calling. The Jerusalem congregation understood that and that is why they were so outraged by the reports that Paul had been teaching Jews to abandon Moses.

You may not like my way of saying it, but the bottom line is they had different practice from the time of the council on. It was the attitude that changed, and that was unfortunate, and still is to this day.
 
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