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Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

  • Yes

  • No


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justinangel

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No, actually your explanation makes no sense to me. The law is the law unless a) there is an exception spelled out in Torah or b) a higher law takes precedence (such as saving a life), aka the lesser of two evils. Once the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, b) kicked in. But not before.

I'm glad you finally pointed this out. Until now you gave me the impression that to remain celibate (unmarried) or chaste in a marriage was always and unconditionally viewed as a sin. It would have been a greater evil if Joseph had honoured Mary's oath "to afflict herself" and then changed his mind and demanded that she break it. I've already explained this to you above by citing Numbers. This is an exception to the rule. Joseph would have transgressed against the Torah and sinned if he reneged on allowing Mary to keep her vow. Moreover, although the command to procreate did apply to men, there were exceptions even in this case. We find an example in the Talmudic tractate Yevamot (63.b). Here there is the story of the Palestinian teacher Simeon ben Azzai (early 2nd century B.C.) who preached a sermon on procreation. When his colleagues reproached him for not practising what he preached since he himself was celibate, he answered: "What can I do? My soul is in love with the Torah. The world can be populated through others." Not unlike the apostle Paul, who was still a devout Jew after his conversion, ben Azzai chose not to marry, since he felt the responsibilities of the married life would interfere with his diligent and devoted study of the Torah. Also, he felt that his studies would interfere with his responsibilities as a husband and a father. Thus it does appear that ancient Jewish tradition did exempt men from the injunction to marry for the sake of studying the Torah and getting closer to God. Certainly ben Azzai couldn't have been the lone exception. A number of mediaeval authorities didn't think so. “Anyone whose soul is constantly in love with the Torah like Ben Azzai so that he cleaves to it all his days without ever taking a wife such a one commits no sin, provided that his [sexual] inclination does not get the better of him" [Shulhan Arukh (Even Ha-Ezer, I. 4)].

Now, in the Litany of St. Joseph, the foster father of Jesus is invoked as "most chaste" since the Catholic Church is more inclined to believe that Joseph was a virgin himself and a bachelor when his marriage with Mary was arranged. Jerome bears witness that this was a belief among Christians in the West during his time. He rejected the Eastern tradition of Joseph being a widower with children as read in the PoJ. " "We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock" (Against Helvidius, 25). I mention this because, from what we know of ben Azzai and Paul, Joseph himself may have chosen to remain celibate for religious reasons and vowed to remain unmarried. Couldn't his soul have been in love with the Torah, too.?This could explain why Mary and Joseph were paired. Catholic saints and mystics have received private revelations that confirm Joseph was a virgin who was chosen by priests of the temple where Mary had served since she was a little girl. It was her mother Anna who consecrated her to God before she was born. Personally I see it as an aberration that an old widower with children would be called to head the Holy Family. Joseph was about 30 when he married Mary who was 14 at the time. The priests wanted her to be married when her temple service came to an end. Anyway, besides the Essene community, there were two other social groups in Nazareth at the time in which celibacy and chaste marriages were practised.

Returning to the Gospel of Luke, the Greek for both "will conceive" (sullēmpsē) and "[will] bear" (texē) in Luke 1:31 are in the future middle indicative tense. The future indicative means that it indicates something that is to take place in the future. The middle voice means that the subject of the sentence (in this case Mary) acts in some way that concerns herself or that she is involved to a large degree in the action or the results of that action. The use of the middle voice, then, is not surprising since Gabriel is speaking of pregnancy and birth; quite obviously the mother is involved to a very great degree in pregnancy and birth - although she tells the angel in v.34 "I have no relations with a man". [Active Indicative as opposed to the Aorist Indicative]

The question is not what Orthodox or Conservative Jews believe today, but what was believed during the second temple period. Orthodox Judaism is built on the same Oral Torah that Second Temple Judaism was built. Thus, we can be sure that it was considered a sin. Conservative observance is a recent thing; it only came into existence in the 20th century.

I beg your pardon. I had the impression until I read your last reply that you were implying that all Jews today view this first command of the Torah as carrying the penalty of sin with equal gravity of the Ten Commandments given to Moses. Some biblical scholars and Church historians see Paul as a revisionist of Judaism. He did in fact first try to convert the Jews before he preached to the Gentiles. Hebrew converts to the Catholic faith have said that they do not feel that they have converted to another religion because of the Church's connection with the Old Covenant. They find the fulfilment of their Judaic faith in the Catholic faith.

Anyway, celibacy and chaste marriages are neither unnatural nor unbiblical. "Be fruitful and multiply" is not unconditionally binding upon every individual; rather, it is a general precept for the human race. Otherwise, every unmarried man and woman of marrying age would be in a state of sin by remaining single, and Jesus and Paul would be guilty of advocating sin as well as committing it.

PAX
:angel:
 
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prodromos

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Personally I see it as an aberration that an old widower with children would be called to head the Holy Family.
Personally I see it as an aberration that the Catholic Church can teach both as true.
 
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prodromos

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Meaning the Latin rite Catholic Church teaches that Joseph the Betrothed was a virgin and the Eastern rite Catholic Churches teach that Joseph the Betrothed was an elderly widower with children. Both are enshrined in the hymns for the feast days of St Joseph in their respective rites yet they cannot both be true. Thus the Catholic Church suffers from an aberration not unlike schizophrenia, living two mutually exclusive realities.
 
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Meowzltov

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Origen likes PoJ because it maintains EV, while scripture doesn't. This is perhaps the beginnings of the false teaching that Tradition (as someone defines) and Scripture as on par with each other.
Actually it started with the apostles.
2 Thesselonians 2;15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
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Meowzltov

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Couldn't his soul have been in love with the Torah, too.?
No. You can't have it both ways. It's like asking if you can steal and still love Torah too.
 
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Standing Up

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Actually it started with the apostles.
2 Thesselonians 2;15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Sure, we all agree the apostles spoke. And then they wrote. So, what oral, unwritten teachings were extant in Paul's time that they were taught? Like everyone else, you've no idea. If you do know, then it's because it was written. The deal is we take what is the NT (written) as their oral traditions, beyond that it is wild speculation that has led to numerous false teachings.
 
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Meowzltov

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Sure, we all agree the apostles spoke. And then they wrote. So, what oral, unwritten teachings were extant in Paul's time that they were taught? Like everyone else, you've no idea. If you do know, then it's because it was written. The deal is we take what is the NT (written) as their oral traditions, beyond that it is wild speculation that has led to numerous false teachings.
Sorry but it says spoke OR wrote, not spoke AND wrote. There were things the Apostles spoke that they did not write. Of course. It would have to be that way.
 
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Rhamiel

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Meaning the Latin rite Catholic Church teaches that Joseph the Betrothed was a virgin and the Eastern rite Catholic Churches teach that Joseph the Betrothed was an elderly widower with children. Both are enshrined in the hymns for the feast days of St Joseph in their respective rites yet they cannot both be true. Thus the Catholic Church suffers from an aberration not unlike schizophrenia, living two mutually exclusive realities.

um, actually, both views are open to Catholics

I believe you Eastern Orthodox have a word for this "theological opinion" ?
I forget the term now
 
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prodromos

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um, actually, both views are open to Catholics

I believe you Eastern Orthodox have a word for this "theological opinion" ?
I forget the term now
If it is in the Liturgy, it isn't open to opinion. We pray what we believe, we believe what we pray.
 
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justinangel

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No. You can't have it both ways.

Then Paul must be burning in hell for choosing a celibate life on account of his study of the Torah before he even converted to the Christian faith. Not to mention John the Baptist and the apostle John who never married. Your rigid interpretation of the command just doesn't square up with Jewish tradition. I've cited the Talmud that shows this other form of exception that apparently was accepted by many orthodox rabbis.

It's like asking if you can steal and still love Torah too.

Are you suggesting that one transgresses against his neighbour by choosing to remain single for spiritual reasons?

PAX
:angel:
 
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Standing Up

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Sorry but it says spoke OR wrote, not spoke AND wrote. There were things the Apostles spoke that they did not write. Of course. It would have to be that way.
Okay, and what were those oral teachings extant in Paul's time that they said? Tell us.

Or how about the one that says how to practice Pascha observance on the first full moon after Spring equinox or do you observe Easter observance on the first Sunday after the first full moon after Spring equinox, making your point moot?
 
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Meowzltov

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Then Paul must be burning in hell for choosing a celibate life on account of his study of the Torah before he even converted to the Christian faith. Not to mention John the Baptist and the apostle John who never married. Your rigid interpretation of the command just doesn't square up with Jewish tradition. I've cited the Talmud that shows this other form of exception that apparently was accepted by many orthodox rabbis.
There were reasons why Jewish men did not marry. For example, if a man were damaged and couldn't bear children. We don't know why Paul was unmarried. We don't even know if he was never married -- he could have been a widower or divorcee. Paul certainly didn't apply Jewish law to Gentiles -- he recommended that believers remain unmarried unless their passions were so strong that they couldn't remain celibate.
 
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Meowzltov

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Okay, and what were those oral teachings extant in Paul's time that they said? Tell us.
For example that the Lord's Day is the first day of the week, not sabbath. The Bible only mentions the Lord's Day once and doesn't say which day it is.
 
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Meowzltov

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Or how about the one that says how to practice Pascha observance on the first full moon after Spring equinox or do you observe Easter observance on the first Sunday after the first full moon after Spring equinox, making your point moot?
Are you referring to the different days of observance of Resurrection Sunday by the EO and Catholic churches? How does it make my point moot?
 
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Rhamiel

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If it is in the Liturgy, it isn't open to opinion. We pray what we believe, we believe what we pray.

yes, many Eastern Orthodox Christians can not fully understand the diversity and freedom of the Catholic Church

in your Church it is not open for debate
in mine, it is not an issue
 
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prodromos

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yes, many Eastern Orthodox Christians can not fully understand the diversity and freedom of the Catholic Church
That sounds like something an Anglican would say.
in your Church it is not open for debate
Truth is not open for debate, no.
in mine, it is not an issue
Hence why I am Orthodox and not Catholic
 
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Meowzltov

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That sounds like something an Anglican would say.

Truth is not open for debate, no.

Hence why I am Orthodox and not Catholic
REally? Because I don't agree with Rhamiel that Catholicism is overall more open. I think that both lungs of the Church have some things they are more open about and others that they are more closed about. For example, the RCC narrows down Real Presence to transubstantiation -- very specific. EO leaves it a mystery -- very broad. And EO can interpret Real Presence in any number of ways that a Catholic cannot.
 
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prodromos

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Every time I hear this "both lungs" description used, I see this image of one HUGE lung (Latin rite 99.5%) and one tiny, almost invisible lung (Eastern rites <0.5%). It seriously is not a flattering picture.
NB. I don't include the Orthodox Church in that picture. It is purely a description used of the Catholic Church.
 
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Standing Up

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For example that the Lord's Day is the first day of the week, not sabbath. The Bible only mentions the Lord's Day once and doesn't say which day it is.
Hold on, you're supposed to tell us what the oral traditions were in Paul's time. Lord's Day is written.

Point is you won't be able to tell us any oral traditions, apart from what is written. This is why some folks reject Tradition. It can be anything.

PS Don't you love irony sharpening irony?
 
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