[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

[Davian]

It's reasoning without risk. The beliefs are permanently safe; locked into stasis by faith; invulnerable to scrutiny.

Ultimately they are, hence the tribalism and isolating natures of many religions, of which is justified (for them), based on how the exposure to other cultures can cause one to loose one's "faith". I am thinking about teenagers going to college, or exposed to the internet, etc.

 

[Davian]

Because you haven't woken to the spiritual aspect of our being, we end up talking past each other.

Provide me with compelling evidence for this "spiritual aspect of our being".

Or do I need to first believe in it before I can see evidence of it?

Circular Reasoning Works Because Circular Reasoning Works

• Davian
• Jun 25, 2015

The human being is much more than a mixture of mechanical/chemical/physical chunk of meat.

.

How so?

 

[Davian]

Sure it is...your position WAS questioned.

.

So?

 

[Davian]

I know...you've never tried to find out.

.

What then do you think our exchanges here, the definitions provided and discussed, have been for?

 

[paulm50]

Because you haven't woken to the spiritual aspect of our being, we end up talking past each other. The human being is much more than a mixture of mechanical/chemical/physical chunk of meat.

.

There you go talking past people, because you haven't woken to the aspect that we are just a mixture of mechanical/chemical/physical chunk of meat.

We might be the most intelligent mechanical/chemical/physical chunk of meat here on Earth. And our brain wants answers to everything we don't understand. so invents reasons for them.

Yet in the end all we are is a mix of mechanical/chemical/physical chunk of meat.

 

[paulm50]

Will someone tell me why this conversation continues?

Because some are convinced they have found the answer, which answers nothing.

 

[Freodin]

Sorry, you missed a key point of the analogy. No one is above the clouds, we are all below the clouds. It just that those who've had a spiritual awakening have risen to just below the clouds, but above the ground and are able to get a better vantage point of what is above the clouds, but they themselves are not yet above because they are still in this world on earth. Does that make sense?

Yes, for once you make sense. It doesn't invalidate any of my points though... which you have chosen to ignore.

So what I've done and continue to try to do is look at my own beliefs from the perspective of an athiest. This has allowed me to understand some of the confusion athiests have regarding Christian beliefs and theology and I've tried to explain and clear up the confusion, but until you have your own personal spiritual awakening, you won't understand my vantage point or what I've been trying to do.

No, this is not what you have done.
I am definitly lacking my "own personal spiritual awakening" in this regard - meaning: I have not changed from an unbeliever to an believer at any time of my life, so I can't really say what that would look for me in hindsight.
But I can tell you, as an atheist here and now: you are NOT looking at your own beliefs from the perspective of an atheist. You look at your own beliefs from the perspective of what a believer thinks an atheist would think... and that, from my experiences, is something completely different.

You haven't the slightest clue of the "confusion" that atheists have regarding Christian beliefs and theology... if you did have the tiniest sliver of a clue, you wouldn't call it "confusion".
Atheists are not "confused"... many atheists have been long time sincere and highly involved believers. (Not me though).
The problem between your "vantage point" and the atheists doesn't come from them lacking a "spiritual awakening"... it is your lack of ability to even understand what atheists are asking for.

As Christians we are called to seek the lost sheep. And a lost sheep who wants to understand is definitely worth seeking and finding. I consider you a lost sheep who is seeking to understand and I also consider myself a lost sheep if I don't have the truth of Jesus Christ to guide me. I hope this makes sense at least.

This idea of "lost sheep" and "worth seeking and finding" (related: not worth seeking and finding) is just that: a concept that excuses you from any responsibility.

You claim calling and knowledge and higher vantage points... but when push comes to shove, you have nothing to offer... and you hide that inability, even from yourself, behind a curtain of pious language.

 

[paulm50]

You claim calling and knowledge and higher vantage points... but when push comes to shove, you have nothing to offer... and you hide that inability, even from yourself, behind a curtain of pious language.

They have the feeling they are above us. In that they are just below the clouds and we are still here down on Earth.

They have found the spirit awakening, we can't see what it is.

That seems to be the answer for some.

 

[ScottA]

What is "spirit"?

But all you have proffered is your opinion.

Where?

Post #678, if you care... speaking of Jiminy Cricket, and all that.

1. Spirit: is the realm that made the make believe world you call home.
2. Pixelland, aka: the universe.

 

[Davian]

That's imposable.

No, I am not looking for perfect, or absolutely accurate descriptions.

Even your unable to provide that

I am not here to provide that. I am here to see what you have, if anything.

because there are as many descriptions of reality as there are human beings.

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Sure, but some of those descriptions of reality allow for the creation of powerful vaccines, computers or the landing of spacecraft on the moons of Saturn.

 

[Davian]

Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

I'll use an analogy <snip>

Those "pearls" look fake. How are you going demonstrate that they are real?

 

[Davian]

Sorry, you missed a key point of the analogy. No one is above the clouds, we are all below the clouds. It just that those who've had a spiritual awakening have risen to just below the clouds, but above the ground and are able to get a better vantage point of what is above the clouds, but they themselves are not yet above because they are still in this world on earth. Does that make sense?
...

Not at all. How does one tell an actual "spiritual awakening" from one that is only imagined?

 

[ScottA]

I do not, by default, accept your religious opinion as truth.

If you where in the desert seeking a drink of water (life) and I had a canteen full, you (by default) are under no obligation to accept it either. The good news SHOULD be welcomed by those who seek...if it is not, that is a sign of your identity as not being of God. But that is okay, the poor in spirit, shall inherit the earth (return to it). Enjoy!

 

[Davian]

Will someone tell me why this conversation continues?

I find the process interesting, and I have a couple of teenagers that often watch over my shoulder to see the actions of the religionists whose beliefs are questioned. We don't get much exposure to religion in these parts, and this serves to inoculate them against religion.

Time well wasted.

 

[Davian]

Because evil is real and Jesus is working to destroy it.

Why would a hypothetically all-powerful, all-knowing deity be bothered by... anything?

 

[Freodin]

If you where in the desert seeking a drink of water (life) and I had a canteen full, you (by default) are under no obligation to accept it either. The good news SHOULD be welcomed by those who seek...if it is not, that is a sign of your identity as not being of God. But that is okay, the poor in spirit, shall inherit the earth (return to it). Enjoy!

With all these analogies... perhaps just once in all your infinite knowledge you could recognize where they all fail:

You offer me a drink of water... I can take it, test it, taste it, see if it is water. I know what I have to do in order to take it, test it, taste it.

But here you are, offering us "spiritual life"... without handing it to us or telling us how to get it.

And you keep excusing yourself from your responsibility to do so.

 

[ScottA]

Can you make that definition less circular? What does being "of the spirit" mean without resorting to the word "spirit"?


eudaimonia,

Mark

The spiritual realm (aka, the Spirit) is the realm that exists beyond the universe, that made the universe (a make-believe creation with a temporary purpose).

 

[Davian]

If you where in the desert seeking a drink of water (life) and I had a canteen full, you (by default) are under no obligation to accept it either.

But in this analogy, you are unable to produce this alleged canteen for me to see, to examine, to sample, and you look just as thirsty as me.

The good news SHOULD be welcomed by those who seek...

I believe that one should examine most critically of those things one wants to be true.

Why would I not want to believe that there is something more to human existence than this relatively brief biological stint on Earth?

if it is not, that is a sign of your identity as not being of God.

God who?

But that is okay, the poor in spirit, shall inherit the earth (return to it). Enjoy!

What is this "good news" that you allude to?

 

[Freodin]

The spiritual realm (aka, the Spirit) is the realm that exists beyond the universe, that made the universe (a make-believe creation with a temporary purpose).

That is false. Such a realm does not exist.

 

[Davian]

The spiritual realm (aka, the Spirit) is the realm that exists beyond the universe,

Where is this, exactly?

that made the universe (a make-believe creation with a temporary purpose).

So we live in the "make-believe" reality, and you cannot show us "reality". Wait, that doesn't sound right...