SHEEPEOPLE

[ScottA]

Enough of the hyperbole.

Knowledge is demonstrable.

Okay. Step outside of the space, time, matter realm...that I may show you. Refusal is a choice.

 

[ScottA]

Thinking isn't a problem, people have come up with all kinds of ideas for what the supernatural world, or great beyond, or higher plane, or whatever is. Imagination is not in short supply.

What is in short supply is any evidence showing these are anything more than something that someone made up. That's the problem. How do we investigate the existence of a spirit world or whatnot in actual reality? Nobody has come up with a reliable method for that yet.

Now, we are getting somewhere. The problem is, that in order to view the evidence, one must take an objective position outside the realm of space, time, and matter. Most of the population are willing...but those who are not, remain below the horizon, unable to see.

This is why I said, "Take a walk." It's a choice. The same is true of living in a ghetto. You don't have to stay, but if you do, don't expect anyone to come drag you out. We have already offered a hand out, but you stay within the confines of space, time, and matter, expecting to be waited on. It ain't going to happen.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I also take that to be a key verse, but since I can look at nature and the night sky and see *at the very least* the clear possibility of a cold indifferent universe, with no divine guiding hand, I am left with either that the verse is not correct in its assertion, (with implications following on) or I am a complete moral monster as Paul declares and describes in the subsequent verses.
I did get a speeding ticket, once, sixteen years ago.

Chris

The Bible also tells you that the slave that does the will of his master without knowing what that will is, will receive less stripes than one who knows his will and doesn't do it. So I would say whether one is a believer or not, if he treats his fellow man like he treats himself, he will be ok as long as he doesn't deny the existence of God. To have doubts is human nature - Thomas doubted. Paul doubted, John doubted, all of them doubted. But none of them denied God. Those who have chosen to ignore the creation and instead futilely speculate that man and the animals is all that there is, those are the ones that should worry.

I spent 30 years arguing for evolution and current theories - until I got tired of ignoring the science and lying to myself. It is that firm belief in science which led me to a belief in God. I "saw" and then had faith, so many here have a greater faith than I.

Especially when we understand everything is made of energy - including our thoughts - and all will return to the One who Gave it. Energy merely transforms and is what makes our consciousness possible. Even science admits it can neither be created nor destroyed - but has always existed. Even if this violates the Laws of Cause and Effect - for every effect, there must be a pre-existing cause. Yet they are willing to set one of their main tenets of science aside when it comes to energy - but not God?


But yet when you gaze out at that universe - you are required to have "faith" in 95% ad-hoc assumptions they have tacked on to make it fit a semblance of the reality. Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Redshift, Black Holes, Neutron Stars, CMBR, the list goes on and on.

Science has not a clue what Dark Matter is, yet they "believe", despite every experiment being an utter failure. But that's because they use the wrong physics to describe a universe 99% plasma - because of wrong assumptions to begin with.

Black Holes - the only solution is a one body problem in an asymptotically flat universe devoid of all other matter. Then without a single two-body solution to the field equations, they shove them in by the billions. Despite the energy tensor being zero, declaring there is no mass besides that of the singularity existing anywhere in the universe. As soon as you stick two in - it is no longer an asymptotically flat universe and the math no longer applies - since no two-body solutions have been found. And as experiments are beginning to suggest, it is not objects orbiting a point source of infinite density and zero volume, but objects orbiting a common electromagnetic center. The link is at the relevant portion, but watching the entire video would be beneficial.

Plasma Space Experiment

We all see the same universe - some just prefer Fairie Dust over the reality of a universe 99% plasma.

 

[ScottA]

Outside the box isn't science. Look to philosophy or religion for that.

Let's break it down:

• Inside the box of space, time, and matter...is the realm of science.
• I "think" I know, therefore I am...is the realm of philosophy.
• I "believe" and am convinced that there is a God...is the realm of religion.
• I "know" by direct information from a higher Authority (God)...is the realm of truth.

...The problem is, there are those who don't [actually] "know" and have had no direct contact with God, who say they do.

Sorry to all who have been the subjects of liars.

 

[Smidlee]

Yet, every scientific explanation we've come to know about the natural world, was always preceded by a supernatural explanation. Not once has data ever been evaluated, and the best conclusion determined to be a supernatural one. Not once.

That's not what scientist claims. They have claim to witness the supernatural and have no problem including it in their theory as long as it doesn't involved God.
Supernatural is something that breaks all know laws of physics which is exactly what scientist claim about black holes.

 

[HitchSlap]

Okay. Step outside of the space, time, matter realm...that I may show you. Refusal is a choice.

How do I step out of the "space, time, matter realm"? Please be specific.

 

[HitchSlap]

That's not what scientist claims. They have claim to witness the supernatural and have no problem including it in their theory as long as it doesn't involved God.
Supernatural is something that breaks all know laws of physics which is exactly what scientist claim about black holes.

Which "scientist"?

 

[Smidlee]

Let's break it down:

• Inside the box of space, time, and matter...is the realm of science.
• I "think" I know, therefore I am...is the realm of philosophy.
• I "believe" and am convinced that there is a God...is the realm of religion.
• I "know" by direct information from a higher Authority (God)...is the realm of truth.

...The problem is, there are those who don't [actually] "know" and have had no direct contact with God, who say they do.

Sorry to all who have been the subjects of liars.

Science is a product of the human mind trying to understand the world around them.Thus science itself has to have a foundation which can only be accepted by faith.

Which "scientist"?

Those that my son loves to watch on Youtube.

 

[HitchSlap]

Science is a product of the human mind trying to understand the world around them.Thus science itself has to have a foundation which can only be accepted by faith.

Those that my son loves to watch on Youtube.

Ok.

 

[Loudmouth]

I have tried to reason and suggest that internal evidence could not possibly prove external matters. I mean, doesn't that make perfect sense? Still, the demand is the same.

There have been two analogies that have come out of recent discussions that I think are worth offering as reason, if not evidence:

1. The New World: History shows that the naysayers of the time stood on the shores of discovery and poo pooed the ideas of western exploration. There were those who looked at things positively, and those who looked at things negatively. History often proves the skeptic wrong. So, the whole historic lesson makes a good example in completely, natural and internal terms. The only thing that would have been required to consider whether the prospects were believable or not, would be a little bit of history, science, and a spirit of adventure...and maybe faith, but not even. But now that we are on the shores of an even bigger step of possibilities, once again there are the naysayers poo pooing. To me, that says, that personality type simply has not learned from history, and given a more complex equation, hasn't changed a thing.

In order for this to be comparable, the New World would need to be invisible and completely undetectable just as God appears to be.

Sheep's Tail:

A bit of a self-pun on Christians, this analogy asserts that the external realm of God is like unto a sheep, and the internal realm of space, time, and matter, is like unto a tail. The tail was created as a point where God would PM evil all over his tail...and then...cut it off. The unseen spiritual sheep is God, the visible tail is made up of the universe and all the little sheep are his flock made in his image. Among the sheep then came the Lamb of God, who, after taking on the evil (sins) of the world, was cut off.

Anyone can tell a story.

 

[Loudmouth]

Science is a product of the human mind trying to understand the world around them.Thus science itself has to have a foundation which can only be accepted by faith.

Evidence is not the product of the human mind, and it doesn't have to be taken on faith.

 

[Smidlee]

Evidence is not the product of the human mind, and it doesn't have to be taken on faith.

Evidence has to be interpreted which requires a mind. This is why evidence can cause someone to come up with the wrong conclusion.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Now, we are getting somewhere. The problem is, that in order to view the evidence, one must take an objective position outside the realm of space, time, and matter. Most of the population are willing...but those who are not, remain below the horizon, unable to see.

This is why I said, "Take a walk." It's a choice. The same is true of living in a ghetto. You don't have to stay, but if you do, don't expect anyone to come drag you out. We have already offered a hand out, but you stay within the confines of space, time, and matter, expecting to be waited on. It ain't going to happen.

Ok, can you show an example of what this objective position outside of space, time and matter is, or provide some reliable method of getting there?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Let's break it down:

• Inside the box of space, time, and matter...is the realm of science.
• I "think" I know, therefore I am...is the realm of philosophy.
• I "believe" and am convinced that there is a God...is the realm of religion.
• I "know" by direct information from a higher Authority (God)...is the realm of truth.

...The problem is, there are those who don't [actually] "know" and have had no direct contact with God, who say they do.

Sorry to all who have been the subjects of liars.

Your fourth point has not been verified in any way so far....

 

[Loudmouth]

Evidence has to be interpreted which requires a mind.

We can test that interpretation against the independent evidence. It doesn't have to be taken on faith.

This is why evidence can cause someone to come up with the wrong conclusion.

How do you determine that a conclusion is wrong? By comparing it to the facts?

 

[ScottA]

How do I step out of the "space, time, matter realm"? Please be specific.

First, let me say thank you for such a nice and reasonable response.

Please do not take what I am going to say as metaphysical, it's well beyond that, which must first be understood. It is one thing to sit in a place and contemplate something or somewhere else, but something complete different to actually go. In this case, one must actually believe...which I understand is difficult without some good reason. In my case, I tried everything else first being unwilling to try it first, and when I had exhausted all other possibilities, it was simply a process of elimination. Bottom line, when I came forward...I didn't believe ANYTHING...but I was sincere. So...rather than believing in something you have no good reason to believe, you at least have to be sincere. This may not seem like life and death to you, but at the time, I had already passed that point, thus my sincerity was indeed acceptable. Your own sincerity is the gauge of whether or not you will be able to see behind the curtain. This test, this demonstration, is not on the faith talkers, it's on you.

Consider relativity. Consider one reality where one believes beyond a certain point, and consider another reality where one only believes up to that certain point. I am no expert, but it stands to reason that the only person who will get beyond that certain point, is the one whose reality includes it. Sorry, I'm not sure that helped.

Bottom line, you are going to have to put a toe out there and be willing to get it wet. Scary, but that's how it's done. If we were talking about dancing or talking to some big scary figure, you might even need a push. In the case of dancing, you have to pull your fingers out of your ears and hear the music, feel the beat, let your backbone slide. Again, this is on you, and you don't have to do it. But before you just write all this off as crazy talk, think about how YOU would describe something like, say, love: It exists, it's invisible, but it's real, and you sound like an idiot no matter what you say. But one thing is true...without it, you don't know what you're missing.

Keep seeking. Step up. Be sincere.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Science is a product of the human mind trying to understand the world around them.Thus science itself has to have a foundation which can only be accepted by faith.

That's completely incorrect, science is a method of examining the world around us. The foundation of science doesn't have to be, nor is it accepted on faith. The reason why science is trusted is because it has a history of working. There's no faith required.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Evidence has to be interpreted which requires a mind. This is why evidence can cause someone to come up with the wrong conclusion.

Except we're not talking about interpretation, we're talking about the evidence itself. Evidence by definition is objective.

Put another way, if you interpret the evidence incorrectly, it doesn't actually change what the evidence is in reality.

 

[Smidlee]

We can test that interpretation against the independent evidence. It doesn't have to be taken on faith.

Faith is required since evidence can only take someone but so far.

How do you determine that a conclusion is wrong? By comparing it to the facts?

You can't unless more evidence reveals the "truth".

 

[Loudmouth]

First, let me say thank you for such a nice and reasonable response.

Please do not take what I am going to say as metaphysical, it's well beyond that, which must first be understood. It is one thing to sit in a place and contemplate something or somewhere else, but something complete different to actually go. In this case, one must actually believe...which I understand is difficult without some good reason. In my case, I tried everything else first being unwilling to try it first, and when I had exhausted all other possibilities, it was simply a process of elimination. Bottom line, when I came forward...I didn't believe ANYTHING...but I was sincere. So...rather than believing in something you have no good reason to believe, you at least have to be sincere. This may not seem like life and death to you, but at the time, I had already passed that point, thus my sincerity was indeed acceptable. Your own sincerity is the gauge of whether or not you will be able to see behind the curtain. This test, this demonstration, is not on the faith talkers, it's on you.

Can people sincerely believe something that isn't true?

Consider relativity. Consider one reality where one believes beyond a certain point, and consider another reality where one only believes up to that certain point. I am no expert, but it stands to reason that the only person who will get beyond that certain point, is the one whose reality includes it. Sorry, I'm not sure that helped.

The difference being that you shouldn't have to rely on belief. If something exists, then you should be able to demonstrate that it exists.

In the case of dancing, you have to pull your fingers out of your ears and hear the music, feel the beat, let your backbone slide.

We can demonstrate that music exists outside of the mind of the person making the claim. Poor analogy.