Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[FreeGrace2]

So all those professing Christians who are in such sins and have had a false teacher say they are still in life and the Kingdom of God and they will inherit all things etc, are not true. When the bible says "all liars etc, it means ALL, not just the people who never believed, but all men if they believed once or not.

So then, Christ did not die and pay for any lying. Is that your view? Where would one find such teaching in the Bible? In fact, given your abuse of the verse about liars, seems there is quite a list of sins that Christ didn't die for.

Hebrews is very clear about the sins Christ died for: ALL sins. Your view has been refuted.

 

[Marvin Knox]

That's not about the gift of salvation. Read all of Romans 11. It's about the blessings promised to the Jewish people through Abraham. The gifts are the blessings, and the calling are the Israelites.

Romans 11:1-2 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:

Romans 11:28-30 Good News Translation (GNT)
28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses. 30 As for you Gentiles, you disobeyed God in the past; but now you have received God's mercy because the Jews were disobedient.

Paul was referring to the promise God made to Abraham and his descendants in Genesis 12:1-2.

Genesis 12:1-2 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 The Lord said to Abram, “Leave your country, your relatives, and your father's home, and go to a land that I am going to show you. 2 I will give you many descendants, and they will become a great nation. I will bless you and make your name famous, so that you will be a blessing.

You've made it a big point several times before to talk about context for the Romans passage.

I've meant to say something before. But this is one too many times without you being corrected on your "only in this context" idea.

All statements by people are made in a certain context. That goes for statements by Jesus and statement made by Paul in his letters.

But whatever the situation was that occasioned the statement - God makes a bold statement that the gifts of God are irrevocable. That means all gifts unless specified differently.

One of God's gifts is salvation.

Therefore salvation is irrevocable.

Your system of theology teaches that statements in scripture only have to do with the situation that occasioned them.

According to your method - we only know that Nicodemus needed to be born again and not necessarily anyone else.

According to your method - we only know that the people who were told to pray without ceasing are included in that directive and not us.

The gifts of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit etc. are only really applicable (so far as we can know) for the people to whom the statements were made.

Keeping things in context is very important, of course. But don't get carried away with the idea to the extent that the scriptures are not written for our learning as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The Bible tells us why people will be cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15. Their names are not in the book of life. They never had eternal life.

Did you miss this scripture?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

No. Let me introduce you to what is called a 'litotes' by scholars. In Rev 2 and 3 the "overcomers" are those believers who have earned eternal rewards through faithfulness and obedience, which is clear from the entire context.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So you think that someone could have been known by God as a particular person for a while as he acted a certain way.

Then if he acts another way he becomes a completely different person so that God can now say truthfully that He never knew that new person.

He once knew a old person who no longer exists. He never knew this new person.

Well I suppose that's one way to get around the truth of the passage.

I do not go around the truth of the passage I believe it is clear

I eagerly wait for your interpretation of 1 John 3:6

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's about man submitting to God, and continuing to believe/obey the Gospel command to REPENT.

When will someone from the insecurity camp show me a verse that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved?

When, oh, when?

 

[FreeGrace2]

A lot of personal responsibility comes with maintaining your walk with God and keeping your faith from being overthrown.

Not to "maintain salvation" though.

We are to "keep" ourselves in other areas, too.

1Jn_5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Jude_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

We are to "keep ourselves" from a lot of things. But show me ANY verse that says that by "keeping ourselves" from any of these "things" we'll maintain or gain salvation.

 

[Albion]

NM

 

[FreeGrace2]

outsidethecamp said: ↑
Did you miss this scripture?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Yes and this shows that even believers the church can be blotted out of the book of life. Otherwise this warning would be meaningless.

Uh, first point: Rev 3:5 is NOT a warning. It's a promise of an eternal reward: recognition for obedience before the Father and angels. It will be quite a bit deal for those so recognized.

In fact, the bolded phrase is called by scholars a 'litotes'. A little research does a body good.

 

[fatherjimparker]

So you think that someone could have been known by God as a particular person for a while as he acted a certain way.

Then if he acts another way he becomes a completely different person so that God can now say truthfully that He never knew that new person.

He once knew a old person who no longer exists. He never knew this new person.

Well I suppose that's one way to get around the truth of the passage.

It is gross error to imagine that the word translated "know", as used in the ancient, middle-eastern, Aramaic language spoken by Jesus, has the exact same meaning as the modern, western, English word, "Know."

What the AME Aramaic word conveys is association, kinship, friendship, discipleship. It is not meant to convey "knowledge of someone's existence."

The conversation has drifted from the context, the actual use of the words "I never knew you." Here 'tis:

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

Jesus was talking about people who used His name (perhaps to garner favor or riches or build a "megachurch") but, like the Pharisees, neglected mercy and, thereby, failed to do the will of the Father. Religion is a great business. A charismatic preacher with a real "gift of gab" can make millions, but that doesn't mean He's a believer in anything but the fact that religion is a great business.

Those are people of whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you."

 

[HatGuy]

Here the words "in Christ" are the way scripture defines it. If ALL things in heaven will be gathered in him, why didnt Paul say all believers who are human only? Christ is going to be all and in all. that does not teach pantheism. We dont worship the creation, but the creator.

Other translations translate Ephesians 1:10 in a rather different way - and as I pointed out, look at the meaning of the words there, and I think you're stretching what Paul means too far. But you've said you don't mean "in Christ" the way I am meaning it, which is fine. I do think scripture means "in Christ" most of the time as "union with Christ". (P.S. Please don't tell me you're KJV only - if so, well, I'm going to give up on any future discussion! : ) .)

At any rate, I think we've both shown how our choices of words are having us talk past each other, and speculating on the angels can get pretty weird. I'm happy to leave this here, for my part, and rather pick up some of the other threads we are discussing here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Slight problem here. There are NO verses that teach that "falling away" equals loss of salvation. That is merely a false assumption. As for the rest of your post, no evidence was given that supports the fallacy that to "fall away" equals "loss of salvation".

To "fall away" means to leave the faith. No longer follow it."

If you leave the faith then you are not saved.

Another repeated opinion without ANY evidence from Scripture. When will someone from the insecurity crowd find such a verse?

Whoever BELIEVES has eternal life. Leaving the faith means you no longer believe.

No, it doesn't, and I'll explain WHY. When one believes, they receive eternal life, per Jn 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27. 20:31. Eternal life is a free gift of God, per Rom 6:23, as well as justification, per Rom 3:24 and 5:15-17. Then Paul wrote that the gifts of God (justificaton and eternal life) are IRREVOCABLE in Rom 11:29.

How is that not clear to you?

Precisely my question to you.

If you leave the faith and embark on a life of selfishness and sin, how will God respond to that behavior?

Great question! Very happy to answer. All the warnings in Scripture are about what God does to that behavior; severe discipline, and loss of eternal reward.

If one is just a bit curious about how God disciplines His children, let's begin with Psa 38:1-17.

Paul tells us exactly what God's response will be.

Rom 2:6-7 ... he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Then Paul directly lied to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not "in well-doing seek for glory and honor…". The "glory and honor" is reserved for those who will have earned rewards.

Those are the people who stay the course and keep the faith.

And they will be rewarded quite nicely.

Any gift can be returned. That does not mean it ceases to be a gift.

Please back up this claim with Scripture. Who in the Bible EVER returned the gift of eternal life? That is nonsense. That isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. It is totally amazing WHY anyone would believe something that they cannot find support for from the Bible.

[/QUOTE] So we KNOW that our justification and eternal life are irrevocable.[/QUOTE]
So then, as a saved, born again, Spirit-filled believer, you know that you can leave the faith, start a child porn business, an abortion clinic and and a brothel offering male, female and child prostitutes, and then lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, be a drunk and a murderer and a drug dealer and still be saved, because Paul said so, right?[/QUOTE]
I suppose these are the list of sins that offend you the most, huh? How many sins did Christ die for and pay for on the cross? Please show me from Scripture that He didn't die for any certain sin.

After all, God's gift is irrevocable, right?

That is straight out of the Bible. But that seems to bother some folk quite a bit. As if someone may "get away" with something.

Please read Psa 38:1-17 for what may happen to any of God's children who get out of line.

 

[LoveofTruth]

outsidethecamp said: ↑
Did you miss this scripture?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Uh, first point: Rev 3:5 is NOT a warning. It's a promise of an eternal reward: recognition for obedience before the Father and angels. It will be quite a bit deal for those so recognized.

In fact, the bolded phrase is called by scholars a 'litotes'. A little research does a body good.

The text is saying that if they do not overcome they will be blotted out of the book on the negative , in the positive it is saying if they are overcomers they will not be blotted out

We read in scripture about overcoming And the many promises to such these are found in various places . But the key here is to ask, how do we overcome?

John says,

"1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcomeththe world, even our faith. "

1 John 5:5
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? "

So it is by faith we overcome . And this is when we are born again Christ dwells in U.S. By faith and now God is working in Us and giving us power strength and all things . As we abide in him we can do all things . So if a man abides not in faith then he is in sin for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And then he will be in unbelief and no overcome and can be blotted out of the book of life.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So then, Christ did not die and pay for any lying. Is that your view? Where would one find such teaching in the Bible? In fact, given your abuse of the verse about liars, seems there is quite a list of sins that Christ didn't die for.

Hebrews is very clear about the sins Christ died for: ALL sins. Your view has been refuted.

Yes Christ died for all sin but if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us , and to cleanse us from all sin what if we don't confess and forsake it and abide in darkness and through the deceitful was of sin we have unbelief

Unbelief will also go to the lake of fire . So did Jesus die for those who don't believe? Yes but if they do not believe they do not have life or forgiveness

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said:
"Slight problem here. There are NO verses that teach that "falling away" equals loss of salvation. That is merely a false assumption. As for the rest of your post, no evidence was given that supports the fallacy that to "fall away" equals "loss of salvation".

Here you go , very simple

"For by grace are ye saved through faith..."Eph 2:8

And

" ye are fallen from grace."Gal 5:4

And

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation"Titus 2:11

So if we are saved by grace to fall from grace is to fall from salvation and Chrust shall profit is nothing as Paul said,Galatians 5:2, and he becomes if no effect to us . The profit that Christ has for us is sakvation and the effect he works in U.S. Is salvation and life in his word as he effectually works in those that believe

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all Calvinist,

Jesus said that the reason men are condemned is when they hate the light , john 3 and unbelief is the sin

 

[HatGuy]

To all Calvinist,

It's not just Calvinists who believe in eternal security

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Butch5]

I agree obedience is in the context, and I agree that working out your salvation includes obedience (but not working for it.)

The definition you've posted for katergazomai is helpful and one I wouldn't argue with. In fact, I would use it to bolster my view.

I'm pasting and altering something I said above here to show you what I mean:

Here's how I put it together. Salvation is more than just justification but involves several other components, such as a completed sanctification, the privilege of ministry, a closer relationship / intimate union with God, healthier relationships, rewards in the age to come, being saved from sin, and many other blessings. These are encapsulated by the idea of inheritance or God's Rest or being an heir with Christ in the scriptures. The entire book of Hebrews is about inheritance and being an heir (when you read the book from beginning to end this is the persistent theme and language). When I speak of OSAS I mean that we cannot lose our justification, but on the other hand we CAN lose our COMPLETED salvation - the 'more' things God wants to give us in salvation, the ACCOMPLISHMENT of God's salvation, the end-result of all God wants to do. So yes, 'working out' is the same as 'accomplishing' salvation -- bringing it to its fullness. But this doesn't mean we work 'for' it and it doesn't mean we can lose all of it. I read most of the warnings of scripture to be referring to a loss of the completed, accomplished salvation God wants to give us, and the rewards to come - a loss of the 'more' things God wants to give us in addition to justification. If salvation also means 'saved from sin', for example, well unbelief will lead us to never enter God's rest where we really are saved from sin... and so on. We can lose everything else God wants to give us, and losing all that is serious and horrible, but we can't lose justification. As 1 Corinthians 3:15 says we will be saved but 'as through fire'.

So yes, full salvation can be lost, but not initial salvation - justification. So I agree with how you're looking at this scripture, but disagreeing with the bigger picture on how to read this scripture. This view of things has helped me to be able to kind-of have the best of both worlds: my place in heaven is secure, but there is a participating with God in his salvation (a working out of it) that I need to be doing. Therefore, justification is unconditional (we are 'justified' by 'grace' through 'faith') but not ALL of salvation is unconditional.

That's fine, however, I don't think you can make a case for that in Scripture. I agree that Hebrews is about the inheritance, however, don't think it's what you've described above. The inheritance that the Christian receives is the land promise to Abraham. The inheritance is the key for the Christian, I just don't think many really know what the inheritance is.

I also disagree with the idea that justification or righteousness can't be lost.

13 "When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. (Ezek. 33:13 NKJ)

 

[LoveofTruth]

It's not just Calvinists who believe in eternal security

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

I know...I was addressing more specific Calvinistic doctrines there

 

[fatherjimparker]

I said:
"Slight problem here. There are NO verses that teach that "falling away" equals loss of salvation. That is merely a false assumption. As for the rest of your post, no evidence was given that supports the fallacy that to "fall away" equals "loss of salvation".

There are no verses that say "God is Trinity" either. You have to actually read what all the scriptures instead of looking for "proof texts". THe Bible is literature, not a service manual.

MY: To "fall away" means to leave the faith. No longer follow it."

Another repeated opinion without ANY evidence from Scripture. When will someone from the insecurity crowd find such a verse?

The passage in Hebrews explicitly and at length describes exactly what such a person "falls away" from. How you are able to interpret that as anything other than the abandonment and loss of one's salvation is a complete mystery to me.

Please explain how you come to the absurd conclusion that you hold so dear in the face of scripture that explicitly refute your false doctrine.

All the warnings in Scripture are about what God does to that behavior; severe discipline, and loss of eternal reward.

Right. That eternal reward is eternal life.

Then Paul directly lied to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul told him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the answer to what must I do to be saved AND NOTHING MORE. It says nothing, zero, zip, about the possibility of losing or abandoning that salvation.

Not "in well-doing seek for glory and honor…". The "glory and honor" is reserved for those who will have earned rewards.

Again: Rom 2:7 "to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;" Eternal life is "salvation."

It is totally amazing WHY anyone would believe something that they cannot find support for from the Bible.

I agree. OSAS is nowhere to be found in the Bible. But you, to the amazement of all who can read the Bible as something other than a list of "proof texts" believe that mush!

MY: So then, as a saved, born again, Spirit-filled believer, you know that you can leave the faith, start a child porn business, an abortion clinic and and a brothel offering male, female and child prostitutes, and then lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, be a drunk and a murderer and a drug dealer and still be saved, because Paul said so, right?

I suppose these are the list of sins that offend you the most, huh? How many sins did Christ die for and pay for on the cross? Please show me from Scripture that He didn't die for any certain sin.

What you suppose is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Please try to focus on the question and attempt to answer it without taking off on a tangent. What Jesus did is not the question I posed to you.

Here it is again. If you are having difficulty understanding the question, please ask for assistance.

Can a "saved" person continually indulge in any and all those sins and remain saved?

The only appropriate answers are a "yes" or a "no."

Another question is not an answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The text is saying that if they do not overcome they will be blotted out of the book on the negative , in the positive it is saying if they are overcomers they will not be blotted out

I already explained what scholars call a 'litotes'.

We read in scripture about overcoming And the many promises to such these are found in various places . But the key here is to ask, how do we overcome?

John says,

"1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcomeththe world, even our faith. "

1 John 5:5
"Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? "

The overcoming in 1 John is our FAITH, not our efforts. The overcoming in Rev 2 and 3 is about our efforts. Obviously different.