Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God and is irrevocable, per Rom 6:23"

No this verse does not say what you say, it doesnt mention about being irrevocable,

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."Romans 6;23

Here we see that eternal life is through Jesus Christ and we come to have Jesus Christ dwell in our hearts by faith as scripture teaches, we must believe and receive him and abide in that faith , continue in that faith as scripture clearly teaches

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith..." Ephesians 3:17

also Jesus Christ himself is that eternal life 1 John 1:1,2

"1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

And if a man sins in unbelief, lets say he is a murderer, even if a christian murders, we read,

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15)

So here we see that if a believer murders he does not have ETERNAL LIFE abiding (or remaining) in him. That kind of changes the idea of eternal life a bit. Jesus is the life in him is life if men abide in him they have life if they abide not they are cast forth as a branch and burned. These things are so clear in scripture. It takes a lot of fancy twisting to get around these verses and I know some try.

Eternal life is a free gift which is based on believing in Christ. Jn 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27, 20:31 To "reap" eternal life, which is NOT based on faith but on "sowing to the Spirit" is about earning reward in eternity.

No the verse does not say it is about rewards it says clearly shall reap EVERLASTING LIFE", where is the words "rewards there"?

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:8)

Life everlasting is salvation.

The concept of reaping involves reward for effort. Like harvesting a crop. Takes effort. Work. Not about salvation.

If we abide in Christ by faith, then God works in and makes us perfect unto every good work, we work in this way fellow labourers with God. We don't merit salvation, but we have God working in us and we work ourselves out in some sense. We pick up our cross and die daily, we deny ungodliness and yeild to the spirit not the flesh. But if we yield to the flesh we shall die.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12)

and

"For we are labourers together with God:..." (1 Cor 3:9)

If this is true, please provide the verse or passages that clearly states this.

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end....12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:1,6, 12-14 KJV)

Notice that we do not lose it by works but by unbelief. And our hearts get hardened through the decietfulness of sin.

and

"...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23)

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Notice where "unbelief" goes. To the lake of fire. So if a believer departs from the living God through an evil heart of unbelief because his heart was hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, he will end up in the lake of fire unless he repents. Again scripture is very clear and the entire OSAS and Calvinistic error is corrected. Let all false teachings crumble to the ground, and follow truth.

and yes this is a salvation issue.

Yes, they can. But that is not loss of salvation. I don't build my doctrines or theology on assumption.

No assumption i have given you many scriptures for these things

Yes, and notice what all the "ifs" are about. They are NOT about maintaining our salvation.

Yes it is about salvation, if we deny him he will deny us before the Father

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said this:
And to the uninformed reader, who would have no context for what Paul wrote, would not understand that to "inherit the kingdom of God" is not about entering heaven. It's about the inheritance IN heaven. A parallel passage says: For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Eph 5:5

Not 'having an inheritance IN the kingdom' is tantamount to 'not inheriting the kingdom'. /QUOTE]
.

No I speak of the kingdom of GOD, Jesus said

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21)

No man in unbelief and sin can enter this kingdom, for the kingdom of GOD is in believers. The difference from the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are noted in scripture and there is a difference.

"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:7)

So those who are deceived in 1 Cor 6:9,10 who think they will enter the kingdom of God and still in sins and unbelief, will not.

Also those who are in such sins, (even if believers commit such sins) will end up in the lake of fire if they repent not as scripture clearly shows. Unbelief is the beginning of their loss of salvation

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

So all those professing Christians who are in such sins and have had a false teacher say they are still in life and the Kingdom of God and they will inherit all things etc, are not true. When the bible says "all liars etc, it means ALL, not just the people who never believed, but all men if they believed once or not.

 

[outsidethecamp]

I said this:
"The Bible tells us why people will be cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15. Their names are not in the book of life. They never had eternal life.

Did you miss this scripture?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[JLB777]

Ah, so it's all about man keeping himself saved. Got it.

It's about man submitting to God, and continuing to believe/obey the Gospel command to REPENT.

Those that turn back away from God, after they have turned to God by obeying the Gospel command to repent, have fulfilled the group that Jesus taught us about in the Parable of the Sower.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Fall away, is the same exact word used in Hebrews 3:12, and rendered departing.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; Hebrews 3:12

Depart or fall away, is a reversal of the position we take when obeying the Gospel command to repent.

It's a turning back, away from our Lord, to once again serve our old master Satan.

Repent means turn to God.

Believe means commit to God to serve and obey Him.


Unbelief is Disobedience: same Greek word!



JLB

 

[outsidethecamp]

I said this:
"Ah, so it's all about man keeping himself saved. Got it."

A lot of personal responsibility comes with maintaining your walk with God and keeping your faith from being overthrown.

We are to "keep" ourselves in other areas, too.

1Jn_5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Jude_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[Tellastory]

No such scripture teaches us being the first-fruits with Christ.

Christ is the first-fruits.

Those who are His will be resurrected at His Coming.


JLB

You had quoted scriptures about being "partakers" with Christ just prior, did you not?

If you want references where saints are of the first fruits, look at the ones redeemed from the earth.

Revelations 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

And if you read after that, you will see the three anegls setting up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth as everyone will know the gospel by the first angel, everyone will know that Babylon (USA ) & the entire western hemisphere will be burned up *with the left behind saints of the ones which are in her made to rest from their labours as their works follow them into the dust ( *see Revelation 18th chapter for more detail of what the second angel will be heralding in general ) & the third angel will warn every one of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire so that no one during this hour of trial will have an excuse for not knowing.

There are other references to firstfruits used in the N.T. but I believe it refers as being the first born again believers of that region, but the above references does tie in with your reference about how eternal life is given to those that are partakers with Christ as being the firstfruits taken from the earth ( there are more than just those 144,000 as signified as serving His personal choir BTW ), and thus explaining why we have scriptures where saints are taking of the fruit from the tree of life to have eternal life as those coming out of the great tribulation & the milleniel reign of Christ because they cannot receive eternal life by being partakers with Christ as the elect being the vessels unto honour in His House once the door to the Marriage Supper is closed. That is why in Revelation 18, the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more of those left behind.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ok, well let's clear this up. Are you speaking of unity (as this passage is speaking of) or union? Usually the phrase "in Christ" is referring to union, not unity (scripturally and theologically speaking). This scripture is speaking of unity, however, and in particular is focusing on Christ as the head of everything - everything will come into his kingdom - all nations, angels, all of creation come into his kingdom (united into his Kingdom) - but that's as far as it goes (as glorious as that is). It does not indicate UNION with him, which is specifically and particularly reserved for the Church. It would be like saying that if I conquered a country that country becomes my queen, but that's not at all what the scriptures are saying - we are 'heirs' with Christ and the angels are not 'heirs' (there's no scripture that says that).

"toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ—the things in heaven and the things on earth." (Ephesians 1:10 NET)

"as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Ephesians 1:10 ESV)

This seems to point to the New Heavens and New Earth coming together at the eschaton, all united under Christ's rule and reign, but in no way does this indicate that all creation enjoys union with him and does not say angels will also be the Bride of Christ. Based on all of the NT and the ideas showed in the OT around Israel, only the Church is the Bride of Christ and enjoy union with him, while all else may be in unity with the church and Christ.

You seem to be stressing the words "in union with him", i was speaking of the words from scripture that say,

"Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:" Ephesians 1:10 KJV only)

Here the words "in Christ" are the way scripture defines it. If ALL things in heaven will be gathered in him, why didnt Paul say all believers who are human only? Christ is going to be all and in all. that does not teach pantheism. We dont worship the creation, but the creator.

To say
"gather together in one all things in Christ" seems clear.

OF God means OF God, not IN God

What do you think it means to be OF GOD". We read in scripture,

"10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,..." 1 John 3:10

we also read of the Son OF God, does this being OF God mean that he is not in God?

and we read

"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself,

So to be a son OF God means we have this hope IN us. But angels are also sons OF God. Do they also have God in them? I am not talking about them being part of the church etc.

"A fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets" really does not have to mean any union with Christ is going on, and to make it say that there need to be other scriptures which point to that, which there are not (yours quoted above do not say this at all). Angels are messengers - give them a message and they deliver it. I really think you're reading this scripture the wrong way.

well angels have prophesied by God and spoken the word of God. To do so they would have to have the word of God come to them, doe the word come to them in them?, and they hear it and speak it. if so this would seem to be Christ in them also?

No, the angels are not in the Holy Spirit and I've never read any verse that says as such. This verse is speaking about how Jesus is more superior to angels and how God says angels must worship him. To apply what Jesus said about worshipping in Spirit and Truth in John 4:23 to angels is just taking the scriptures further than they reveal.

If God seeks those to worship him in spirit and in truth, and all must worship him this way. Do you suppose the angels worship him in some other way? are they in the flesh? or some kind of angel flesh? or do they worship him in spirit?

God's light can be in both but that does not mean that the angels are in union with God. Jesus is THE Son of God and the incarnation points to him being 100 percent divine and 100 percent human. But the result of what you are saying here can make him an angel too, Is Jesus 100 percent human, 100 percent divine, and also 100 percent angel? Because the implication of this kind of teaching of union between Christ and angels would force you to have to go that direction - and yet Hebrews 1 really seems to go against that kind of thinking.

what? no I am not saying Jesus is an angel, if God shines in every believer i am not saying that they are Jesus. Angels are in the life they are holy and eternal beings to have eternal life is to have Jesus Christ who is everlasting life. The point pf using angels shows that they have everlasting life ( unless you dent=y this and say angels will die and cease to exist one day, which scripture does not say) and having everlasting life they must be in Christ because he is everlasting life. The point is that some of them who are eternal perfect beings sinned and will end up in the lake of fire. This shows that a being can go form a glorious state in heaven and end up in the lake of fire. That was the point of using the angels to show a person can fall away. And i believe that Peter uses them for a similar reason. But ou try to say I am talking about being in union with or part of the church etc. i am not speaking f that and your assumptions on that do not have soundness. You seem to be just speculating what you would imagine them to be if they are in Christ. They do have everlasting life and we know who this eternal life is, it is Jesus read 1 John 1:1,2


No, there's no reason to go that step to say they are in him - in union with him. Angels are "ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation" (Hebrews 1:14) and that's as far as the scriptures reveal. To include them as "in Him" means to include them in the Bride of Christ, and to include them as part of the Church. If you want to go this way you are inventing your own teaching that is nowhere in the scriptures, and simply nowhere in orthodox Christian teaching - Arminian or Calvinist. What you are bordering on might actually sound more like some of Origen's ideas.[/QUOTE]

 

[LoveofTruth]

Did you miss this scripture?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Yes and this shows that even believers the church can be blotted out of the book of life. Otherwise this warning would be meaningless.

 

[BukiRob]

When the Lord said "I never knew you" He pretty much answered the question about whether this passage is appropriate to use to teach loss of salvation.

Never means never. If He never knew them they were never saved.

All this passage really seems to teach is that those who never knew Him in this life will continue in that state forever.

You are kind of missing the point. Yeshua said he never knew them... THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE SAVED

 

[LoveofTruth]

When the Lord said "I never knew you" He pretty much answered the question about whether this passage is appropriate to use to teach loss of salvation.

Never means never. If He never knew them they were never saved.

All this passage really seems to teach is that those who never knew Him in this life will continue in that state forever.

The expression I never knew you, means he never knows any man after the flesh. and no flesh shall glory in His presence. If believers stand before God they stand in Christ in the new man, not in the old man. So if a believer like Judas who was once called a sheep sent to the lost sheep and had his name written in the lambs book of life as a believer in Christ Jesus knew him as he was in Him. Then when a man becomes a devil and departs from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. Jesus can say to him I never knew YOU.

Imagine a man standing with a white sheet over him and the sheet represents Christ and God knows him in Christ now he takes off that sheet and all we see is the filthy old man. Jesus doesn't know him in that state.

We read similar in 1 John when John says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. And then he says in 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:6

Notice here that if we are abiding ) remaining) in him, we sin not, but when we sin through unbelief, ( for whatsoever is not of faith is sin) then we cannot even claim to know him or have seen him ( while we are in the sin and darkness) we cannot say we are in the light when we are in darkness.

But notice the words "hath not seen him, neither known him." No man in that state has EVER seen him neither KNOWN him as they abide in the darkness of sin and unbelief. So when a believer wilfully sins and is in darkness can they say they know the Lord and are in him? Have they ever known him in that state? So if they die in that state of unbelief and darkness and are not in him, God can say truly I never knew you. Even if they were once in him

and

"20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezekiel 3:20,21)

again another Calvinistic OSAS error shattered!!!

 

[fatherjimparker]

Slight problem here. There are NO verses that teach that "falling away" equals loss of salvation. That is merely a false assumption. As for the rest of your post, no evidence was given that supports the fallacy that to "fall away" equals "loss of salvation".

To "fall away" means to leave the faith. No longer follow it.

If you leave the faith then you are not saved. Whoever BELIEVES has eternal life. Leaving the faith means you no longer believe.

How is that not clear to you?

If you leave the faith and embark on a life of selfishness and sin, how will God respond to that behavior?

Paul tells us exactly what God's response will be.

Rom 2:6-7 ... he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Those are the people who stay the course and keep the faith.

Rom 2:8-9 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,

Those people include the ones who "fall away."

What is being ignored is the fact that Paul wrote in Rom 11:29 that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Now, what did he mean by 'gifts'? We don't have to assume anything, because he clearly defined what he meant.

In that passage, Paul is talking about whether or not Israel has been cut off from God. His answer is "No" because the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He's not talking about salvation. When you take a verse or two out of it's context, as you have done, you lose its meaning.

In Rom 5:15-17, he defined justification as a gift of God.
In Rom 6:23 he defined eternal life as a gift of God.
The very next use of 'gift' is in 11:29 where he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Any gift can be returned. That does not mean it ceases to be a gift.

[/QUOTE] So we KNOW that our justification and eternal life are irrevocable.[/QUOTE]

So then, as a saved, born again, Spirit-filled believer, you know that you can leave the faith, start a child porn business, an abortion clinic and and a brothel offering male, female and child prostitutes, and then lie, cheat, steal, fornicate, be a drunk and a murderer and a drug dealer and still be saved, because Paul said so, right?

After all, God's gift is irrevocable, right?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The expression I never knew you, means he never knows any man after the flesh. and no flesh shall glory in His presence. If believers stand before God they stand in Christ in the new man, not in the old man. So if a believer like Judas who was once called a sheep sent to the lost sheep and had his name written in the lambs book of life as a believer in Christ Jesus knew him as he was in Him. Then when a man becomes a devil and departs from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. Jesus can say to him I never knew YOU.

Imagine a man standing with a white sheet over him and the sheet represents Christ and God knows him in Christ now he takes off that sheet and all we see is the filthy old man. Jesus doesn't know him in that state.

We read similar in 1 John when John says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. And then he says in 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:6

Notice here that if we are abiding ) remaining) in him, we sin not, but when we sin through unbelief, ( for whatsoever is not of faith is sin) then we cannot even claim to know him or have seen him ( while we are in the sin and darkness) we cannot say we are in the light when we are in darkness.

But notice the words "hath not seen him, neither known him." No man in that state has EVER seen him neither KNOWN him as they abide in the darkness of sin and unbelief. So when a believer wilfully sins and is in darkness can they say they know the Lord and are in him? Have they ever known him in that state? So if they die in that state of unbelief and darkness and are not in him, God can say truly I never knew you. Even if they were once in him

and

"20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezekiel 3:20,21)

again another Calvinistic OSAS error shattered!!!

So you think that someone could have been known by God as a particular person for a while as he acted a certain way.

Then if he acts another way he becomes a completely different person so that God can now say truthfully that He never knew that new person.

He once knew a old person who no longer exists. He never knew this new person.

Well I suppose that's one way to get around the truth of the passage.

 

[outsidethecamp]

The expression I never knew you, means he never knows any man after the flesh. and no flesh shall glory in His presence. If believers stand before God they stand in Christ in the new man, not in the old man. So if a believer like Judas who was once called a sheep sent to the lost sheep and had his name written in the lambs book of life as a believer in Christ Jesus knew him as he was in Him. Then when a man becomes a devil and departs from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. Jesus can say to him I never knew YOU.

Imagine a man standing with a white sheet over him and the sheet represents Christ and God knows him in Christ now he takes off that sheet and all we see is the filthy old man. Jesus doesn't know him in that state.

We read similar in 1 John when John says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. And then he says in 1 John 3:6

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:6

Notice here that if we are abiding ) remaining) in him, we sin not, but when we sin through unbelief, ( for whatsoever is not of faith is sin) then we cannot even claim to know him or have seen him ( while we are in the sin and darkness) we cannot say we are in the light when we are in darkness.

But notice the words "hath not seen him, neither known him." No man in that state has EVER seen him neither KNOWN him as they abide in the darkness of sin and unbelief. So when a believer wilfully sins and is in darkness can they say they know the Lord and are in him? Have they ever known him in that state? So if they die in that state of unbelief and darkness and are not in him, God can say truly I never knew you. Even if they were once in him

and

"20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezekiel 3:20,21)

again another Calvinistic OSAS error shattered!!!

Amen. The same is true for the 5 foolish VIRGINS! They were familiar with Jesus being "Lord".

Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matt 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

He knows them not because they turned back.

Heb_10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You are kind of missing the point. Yeshua said he never knew them... THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE SAVED

It doesn't say that they "thought" that God knew them.

It says that God never knew them.

God either knew them once or He did not.

If He did not know them once - the passage has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

That's the point.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Do the words Eternal Life appear in Romans 11:29?

NO! Checkmate!

Stringing together parts from other scriptures to try and create a doctrine to prop up your preconceived idea, is no more scripture interpreting scripture, than tying to create a human being from parts of other human beings, and claiming you created a man, when all you've done is create
FRANKENSTEIN!!

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

...will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I Don't need to string together "parts" from other scriptures, to create s man made doctrine.

Not inherit the kingdom of God, says it all.

Checkmate!!!
JLB

Now you're just being silly.

God says in Romans 11:29 that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Elsewhere He lists being saved as a gift of God.

Therefore being saved is irrevocable.

It's not rocket surgery.

It's simple logic.

It's not Frankenstein theology.

It's systematic theology.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Marvin,

The good work Paul spoke of are Love and Righteousness. Read all of Philippians 1, there's nothing there about salvation.

Philippians 1:9-11 KJV
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So becoming sincere and without offense till the day of Christ and filled with the fruits of righteousness with love abounding more and more is not salvation?

If it isn't - it'll do til salvation comes.

 

[HatGuy]

No we are saved by grace through faith, but lose it by an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

Consider this section closely

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,...6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end....12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:1,6, 12-14 KJV)

Notice that we do not lose it by works but by unbelief. And our hearts get hardened through the decietfulness of sin.

and notice all the "ifs" , if we hold fast and hold the beginning of our confidence.

Thank you for dealing with this scripture, and the big picture, thoughtfully and healthily. There are many things I can agree with here - firstly, that the real issue is unbelief and not sin (immorality, more specifically). I think this is the most pastorally sound Arminian view and it's Arminianism at its best on this topic.

Where my story changes is in terms of what is exactly in view here in Hebrews. The story in Chap 3 & 4 talks about how the Israelites didn't enter God's Rest (the promised land - the place of rest). In other words, the unbelieving Israelites didn't inherit God's promises... to the full. Note that God never sent them back to Egypt and he never stopped calling them his own, yet this particular generation didn't reach the pinnacle of God's promises to them. They were still chosen but lost out on God's promises.

So here's how I put it together. Salvation is more than just justification but involves several other components, such as a completed sanctification, the privilege of ministry, a closer relationship / intimate union with God, healthier relationships, rewards in the age to come, being saved from sin, and many other blessings. These are encapsulated by the idea of inheritance or God's Rest or being an heir with Christ in the scriptures. The entire book of Hebrews is about inheritance and being an heir (when you read the book from beginning to end this is the persistent theme and language). When I speak of OSAS I mean that we cannot lose our justification, but on the other hand we CAN lose our COMPLETED salvation - the 'more' things God wants to give us in salvation, the ACCOMPLISHMENT of God's salvation, the end-result of all God wants to do. We lose rewards and blessings and so on, and we lose them not due to sin per se, but due to unbelief. You'll go to heaven but singed with fire (see 1 Corinthians 3:15). I read most of the warnings of scripture to be referring to the completed, accomplished salvation God wants to give us, and the rewards to come. If salvation also means 'saved from sin', for example, well unbelief will lead us to never enter God's rest where we really are saved from sin... and so on.

So yes, full salvation can be lost, but not initial salvation - justification. That's where I sit with OSAS.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

OSAS is something obvious in the Scriptures, which isn't very debatable because the doctrine was formed no sooner than the Bible became published to the public- when Protestantism really gained speed.

The Catholic Church's 'Infused Righteousness', where one's salvation is at stake in the event of a mortal sin, was quickly challenged in light of what people read in the New Testament.

But even then there's an issue- OSAS isn't necessarily concrete either, there in fact several different notions of it. Calvin's 'Perseverance of the Saints' is probably the roughest of all, which states that if a person fails to persevere then they were never saved to begin with- that a permanent infusion takes place rather then a breakable one. Which is a lot like Luther's ideology except that he taught even such perseverance wasn't really needed.

 

[HatGuy]

If we look at the context it's clear that Paul is speaking to the issue of obedience.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12 KJV)

It seems pretty clear that working out one's salvation includes obedience. However, if we look at the definition for the word "katergazomai" find that it means to accomplish.

1) to perform, accomplish, achieve 2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results 2a) of things: bring about, result in 3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing

This is in line with what Jesus said when asked about salvation. He said, 'strive to enter at the straight gate.'

I agree obedience is in the context, and I agree that working out your salvation includes obedience (but not working for it.)

The definition you've posted for katergazomai is helpful and one I wouldn't argue with. In fact, I would use it to bolster my view.

I'm pasting and altering something I said above here to show you what I mean:

Here's how I put it together. Salvation is more than just justification but involves several other components, such as a completed sanctification, the privilege of ministry, a closer relationship / intimate union with God, healthier relationships, rewards in the age to come, being saved from sin, and many other blessings. These are encapsulated by the idea of inheritance or God's Rest or being an heir with Christ in the scriptures. The entire book of Hebrews is about inheritance and being an heir (when you read the book from beginning to end this is the persistent theme and language). When I speak of OSAS I mean that we cannot lose our justification, but on the other hand we CAN lose our COMPLETED salvation - the 'more' things God wants to give us in salvation, the ACCOMPLISHMENT of God's salvation, the end-result of all God wants to do. So yes, 'working out' is the same as 'accomplishing' salvation -- bringing it to its fullness. But this doesn't mean we work 'for' it and it doesn't mean we can lose all of it. I read most of the warnings of scripture to be referring to a loss of the completed, accomplished salvation God wants to give us, and the rewards to come - a loss of the 'more' things God wants to give us in addition to justification. If salvation also means 'saved from sin', for example, well unbelief will lead us to never enter God's rest where we really are saved from sin... and so on. We can lose everything else God wants to give us, and losing all that is serious and horrible, but we can't lose justification. As 1 Corinthians 3:15 says we will be saved but 'as through fire'.

So yes, full salvation can be lost, but not initial salvation - justification. So I agree with how you're looking at this scripture, but disagreeing with the bigger picture on how to read this scripture. This view of things has helped me to be able to kind-of have the best of both worlds: my place in heaven is secure, but there is a participating with God in his salvation (a working out of it) that I need to be doing. Therefore, justification is unconditional (we are 'justified' by 'grace' through 'faith') but not ALL of salvation is unconditional.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I said this:
The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God and is irrevocable, per Rom 6:23"

No this verse does not say what you say, it doesnt mention about being irrevocable,

I never said Rom 6:23 said that eternal life was irrevocable. Anyone who has read my posts knows that. I said that Paul defined eternal life as a gift of God IN Rom 6:23. Then I said that Paul wrote in Rom 11:29 that God's gifts are irrevocable.

No the verse does not say it is about rewards it says clearly shall reap EVERLASTING LIFE", where is the words "rewards there"?

Again, those who actually read my post saw my explanation about wht "reaping" means.

Life everlasting is salvation.

So it is. And everlasting life, or eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God. So says Paul.

"For we are labourers together with God:..." (1 Cor 3:9)

This is not about salvation. This is about production.

Yes it is about salvation, if we deny him he will deny us before the Father

<sigh> Context proves that it is NOT about salvation. v.12A is about reigning with Christ IF we endure. This isn't salvation, but an eternal reward for enduring. v.12B is just the reverse; IF we deny Him (meaning we haven't endured) we will be denied (reigning with Him).

And don't forget v.13. Even if we remain faithless, God remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself

Who indwells the believer? God the Holy Spirit. God the Father cannot deny God the Holy Spirit.

Add that to the FACT that God seals the believer with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14) for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30), and the seal is a pledge or promise (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5).