Being Messianic in the Christian Churches

[Meowzltov]

None of the Catholics I know personally keep Torah.

Because,as I've already said, Hebrew Catholics are very rare. I bet you've never seen a nun in a violet habit, but they exist too.

 

[Meowzltov]

Exactly, which is why Paul said we WERE gentiles (pagans), WERE without hope, WERE without God, WERE not partakers of he covenants of hope and WERE aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel. But through Messiah, he said, "You are NOW fellow citizens." So if I am a fellow citizen, not a replacement but a fellow citizen, then I can't stand on the outside of the covenant looking in using the Noachide laws because they CONTINUE to keep me out of of covenant because the covenant is the 10 Words (Deut 4:13), not the Rabbinic Noachide 7. I was a ger to Israel, I am now part of Israel... therefore, Father has the same expectations of me. One law for Israel and the ger with them!

Yes. You are now gentiles that ARE fellow citizens of the commonwealth. But you are not israel.

 

[Ken Rank]

Yes. You are now gentiles that ARE fellow citizens of the commonwealth. But you are not israel.

Then there is no covenant for me because the only covenant found "in the bible" is with Judah and Israel, not gentiles. The strangers, the GER who came out of Egypt with Israel were to be treated as if native born and assimilated into the tribes they traveled with. Many Jews TODAY should they find the means to draw their lineage back far enough, might just find they are descendents of those those GER and yet... they, and their descendent gers, were part of Israel. Heck, even Caleb wasn't a natural born and are you not going to consider him an Israelite?

Again, I don't care what you believe on this. But I know this much, if you were raised through a certain paradigm my words are almost nonsensical. I wasn't raised with that paradigm.... I had no religious paradigm and no axe to grind or ethnicity to protect... whatever the Word said it said... and the ger coming out of Egypt with Israel became part of Israel. Today, I have attached myself to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel but am still a pagan? Sorry.. that isn't Scripture that is what happens when you extend out this Rabbinic Noachide nonsense. No offense intended, of course.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Because,as I've already said, Hebrew Catholics are very rare. I bet you've never seen a nun in a violet habit, but they exist too.

I've seen nuns in violet habits, (nothing special,) but never even heard of a Catholic who keeps Torah, nor have any of the Catholics I know who I told about this thread.

"Hebrew Catholics are very rare"

I agree.
The whole idea of Torah-in-Catholicism is as far as I know unique to you. That is my exact point.
Your own leaders would probably be surprised, and to be honest, I don't think they would like to find out what you're doing. (You probably are in contact with a few others though, who do what you do, but I doubt they actually are part of or can be said to represent the leadership.)

Catholicism, again, does not PROMOTE Torah, and in fact teaches people to NOT keep Torah. You CAN keep Torah and still visit the Catholic church, but by the same token, you can keep Torah and attend the Mosque every day, just as well. So to say Islam promotes Torah would be ludicrous. Hence my reminder to not be surprised when other people find your views strange or self-contradictory.

 

[visionary]

How can you have two masters...

 

[Ken Rank]

The whole idea of Torah-in-Catholicism is as far as I know unique to you. That is my exact point.

Your own leaders would probably be surprised, and to be honest, I don't think they would like to find out what you're doing. (You probably are in contact with a few others though, who do what you do, but I doubt they actually are part of or can be said to represent the leadership.)

Actually, I know of two Catholic congregations in the east, one is in NY, that are Feast keeping, Sabbath keeping churches that ARE sanctioned by the RCC. I think we need to let God work here.... the goal it seems, is to bring all of His people together as one so that when messiah comes he is coming for a unified single body not one divided into 40,000 sects and divisions. So, a call to come, the call to awaken to the roots of the faith, will go out to all and all who are His will come to that center location (Kingdom) and conform, ultimately, to Him. There is no reason to make somebody conform to our beliefs when A. we don't have all truth and B. we are headed to the same place anyway.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Maybe there are Muslims who worship ten gods, but as a rule, Muslims don't worship ten gods. So even if you find some Muslims who do that, you can't expect anyone else to know about it, nor can you present it as normative.

There are good people in Babylon / Islam / Catholicism. But Babylon is doomed to destruction, and you will be buried under the ruins of their tower if you do not come out. You can stay in Sodom, but there are better places to lodge.

I never got any pro-Torah message the many times I went to Catholic services, and I doubt anyone else in the congregation did. There is a bad side to Babylon, there is a good side as well; but in the end it must burn. And the smoke of its rising will be a marvel to sailors afar off.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Ken:

I agree that being Catholic-Messianic is better than being just Catholic or atheist. It is closer to truth, it is a stepping stone. But I don't think OH views her religion as a stepping stone to something greater, as though she is about to come out of Catholicism.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken:

I agree that being Catholic-Messianic is better than being just Catholic or atheist. It is closer to truth, it is a stepping stone. But I don't think OH views her religion as a stepping stone to something greater, as though she is about to come out of Catholicism.

Ultimately all "religion" as we define the word today, will die off. There won't be an RCC or a denomination, just God's Israel and the Torah as the light to our path. However, we are also watching a great awakening... people taking those first steps toward this more "Hebraic" message and thus we should expect to A. see more error in our past and B. see people at different levels of understanding on this walk. God isn't doing this awakening as a genie who snaps a finger, but rather a process over time, a generation.

Think of the parable of the fig tree. The generation that sees it sprout those new tender shoots will not pass before all things come to pass. What does "tender shoots" mean? It means the fig tree (Israel) has been asleep... hibernating, it is awakening from it's winter slumber and beginning it's new growth. It was still Israel when asleep, and it is Israel when it awakens and begins to walk in deeper truths. That's how I see what is happening, anyway.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Hoshiyya]

"a process over time, a generation."

More than a generation, I think. I suspect the entire the millennium will be a time of transformation, rather than a "finished product". It says the law will go out from Zion, which in context indicates to me a continuing project of transformation. Scripture even speaks of a time "when the thousand years are ended", so God's project with purifying mankind is continuing even after the millennial age.

 

[Ken Rank]

"a process over time, a generation."

More than a generation, I think. I suspect the entire, or large parts of, the millennium will be a time of transformation, rather than a "finished product". It says the law will go out from Zion, which in context indicates to me a continuing project of transformation.

You're probably correct, I tend to round off alot! However, there is a marked time of awakening, the dry bones coming to life... consider this verse too:

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

I made bold and underlined the key here in that, in my words, this is saying, "He isn't coming back until...." So we have a restoration which I personally see as a return to Torah by those not walking in it and also the reunification of ALL of Israel as messiah won't return for a fractured bride. These will take place and THEN he will come. So more than a generation? Probably, but I am picture guy and I think there is a lot to take from the story of Joseph and the Exodus which came later.

Enjoy the rest of your Sabbath. Blessings!

 

[BukiRob]

I appreciate your whole post Rob but this part really jumped out because, quite frankly, I hadn't considered it before. The whole point of the vision Peter had was of course NOT about food but people. The rule of the day, the halacha, was that anyone not Jewish was unclean and thus unworthy and we see this when the Apostles try to push her away. She clings to the messiah of Israel, as I do not being Jewish, and her faith... my faith... is then sufficient and she and I become part of the same family. No replacement theology with sadly is what some Messianic Jews hear when I say, "I am part of Israel," but I am part of Israel.

We indeed are grafted in. We do not cease being gentile but we ARE joint heir's. We have all of the blessings from our Father but we do not an earthly inheritance ; the land

 

[Ken Rank]

We indeed are grafted in. We do not cease being gentile but we ARE joint heir's. We have all of the blessings from our Father but we do not an earthly inheritance ; the land

Respectfully, I disagree with part of this. When the word "ethnos" was first translated into English, it was translated as gentiles. The word itself (ethnos) means "of the nations" and the idea is "any nation other than Israel." So when that word was first translated as gentiles, the word gentile had an interesting meaning. We find in Webster's 1828 that it meant, "heathen, pagan, anyone not a Jew or Christian." So literally a "gentile Christian" would be an oxymoron.

Time and culture drives the meanings of words. "Gay intercourse," for example, once meant "happy discussion," I need not write what it means now. Similarly, the word gentile changed in meaning over time and now means "a believer who is not Jewish." Paul said we WERE ethnos, WERE gentiles.... but no longer are. We served pagan gods but when we latched onto the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel we ceased being pagans and became a part of the family of God, and heirs to the promises made beforehand. The covenant is made with the House of Judah "and his companions" and the House of Israel "and his companions." Whether I (we?) are of the House of Israel or are simply a companion, the covenant is still with us, either way... because it is NOT made with gentiles. There is no covenant made with gentiles.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Hoshiyya]

The interesting thing relative to that is: can a person be Israelite, without belonging to a specific tribe ?
Or do the adopted/grafted-in ones belong to a specific tribe, if so which ?
If a Scot or Paddy join to Israel, what tribe do they become part of ?

Just thinking out loud.

The post-millennial Jerusalem described in Revelation has 12 gates, one for each tribe, but no gate for Greeks or Scythians.

 

[Lulav]

The ones who were considered Gentiles were adopted into the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

Manasseh is mentioned in the 144,000 sealed but Ephraim is not.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

1. Juda
   
2. Reuben
   
3. Gad
   
4. Aser
5. Nepthalim
   
6. Manasses
7. Simeon
8. Levi
9. Issachar
10. Zabulon
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

 

[Ken Rank]

The ones who were considered Gentiles were adopted into the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

I think I believe this too or at least, the idea of being "prophetically" Ephraim is less to do with a tribe and more with the blessing over him... multitude of nations. The "fullness of the gentiles" quote in the NT, when rolled back into Hebrew, would be "melo haGoyim," fullness of nations.

 

[Meowzltov]

Then there is no covenant for me because the only covenant found "in the bible" is with Judah and Israel, not gentiles. The strangers, the GER who came out of Egypt with Israel were to be treated as if native born and assimilated into the tribes they traveled with. Many Jews TODAY should they find the means to draw their lineage back far enough, might just find they are descendents of those those GER and yet... they, and their descendent gers, were part of Israel. Heck, even Caleb wasn't a natural born and are you not going to consider him an Israelite?

Again, I don't care what you believe on this. But I know this much, if you were raised through a certain paradigm my words are almost nonsensical. I wasn't raised with that paradigm.... I had no religious paradigm and no axe to grind or ethnicity to protect... whatever the Word said it said... and the ger coming out of Egypt with Israel became part of Israel. Today, I have attached myself to the God of Israel through the messiah of Israel but am still a pagan? Sorry.. that isn't Scripture that is what happens when you extend out this Rabbinic Noachide nonsense. No offense intended, of course.

Ken, the New Covenant is with the whole world.

If you really want to be part of Israel and take upon yourself the Mosaic laws, go to a UMJC synagogue and convert and become a Jew.

 

[Lulav]

I think I believe this too or at least, the idea of being "prophetically" Ephraim is less to do with a tribe and more with the blessing over him... multitude of nations. The "fullness of the gentiles" quote in the NT, when rolled back into Hebrew, would be "melo haGoyim," fullness of nations.

Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted by Israel, Jacob into the family of tribes, they were considered Israel as part of the whole.
However when Jacob adopted them he told Joseph that if he had any more children (boys) that they would be part of one or the other of the two.

This of course made 13 tribes but when it came to the land covenant Levi was not given a specific parcel but was scattered throughout the 12 tribal lands. Manasseh held land on both sides of the Jordan.

It could be possible that when they left Egypt that the part or all of the mixed multitude were those from other offspring of Joseph, children he had after Manasseh and Ephraim. These were mixed because they were half Egyptian and could have had other nations mixed within from others who were slaves to Egypt. I think today many are offspring from them.

 

[Lulav]

Ken, the New Covenant is with the whole world.

If you really want to be part of Israel and take upon yourself the Mosaic laws, go to a UMJC synagogue and convert and become a Jew.

Well I felt that slap in the face and it wasn't even directed at me! OH, he is correct. You however contradict yourself.

first you said

The new covenant is with the whole world.
Then you said

if you really want to be part of Israel

So basically you are saying he is part and but not really because he hasn't converted.

Now I do believe that Gentiles should convert, be circumcised and all that, but surely you can see how you are contradicting yourself?

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

 

[Meowzltov]

but never even heard of a Catholic who keeps Torah

Well now you know of at least one.

Here is another Torah observant Catholic, this one Melkite:

I am not one of those people who consider obeying the Torah to be Judaizing (as long as Torah is not the means of salvation).

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...sk-me-my-denomination-i-am-a-melkite.7664659/