Being Messianic in the Christian Churches

[Meowzltov]

Moved to its own thread:

Seeing Im not looking to accuse you, but am just attempting to see if yoh really are Torah observant.

I keep the shabbat, eat kosher (even separating meat and dairy), observe the holy days, etc. My church is behind me on this. There was a time in church history where the church was confused and thought that Jews had to become gentiles when we became christians, but praise God the church has a clearer vision now and allows us Jews to keep our Jewish identity.

To be Messianic in a Christian Church is a bit harder than attending a Messianic synagogue for two reasons.

• It means keeping two sets of rules, one for me as a messianic and one for me as a member of the church. For me that means that not only do I keep the 613, but I also must keep my Catholic obligations. For example, I keep shabbat as a day of rest, but I also go to Mass on Sunday for worship. Now my church does offer a Mass on Saturday that counts for Sunday obligation, and as soon as I get my car, I intend to attend that one, so that I can attend Mass on Shabbat -- I think that will be very nice.
• It means going it alone. Let's face it, it's a lot easier to be Torah observant in a congregation where everyone else is too. In my parish, there is only one other Jew, and he is completely gentilized. It seems like every time I turn around, another parish dinner is serving pork. It's not that bad, really, but I do get lonely from time to time. It's one of the reasons I also occasionally attend the local synagogue (Reform) especially on holy days.

I'm going to answer your questions, because they are personal, and I don't think I'll be advocating my particular church by answering them.

Do you do the rosary?

Sometimes, but not very often. Not as often as I should really. I'm not big on Marian devotion; I never have been. I do love Mary, I think I'm just lazy.

Do you pray to "intermediaries" other than Messiah?

I usually don't ask for prayers, going straight to God myself. But if something big comes up, then I ask absolutely EVERYONE for their prayers to God through Christ, both the saints I know here on earth and the saints in heaven.

Do you own any graven images, or icons used for your "holy" observance?

Not personally, though I am not opposed to inspirational art. I don't believe it is an idol unless you worship it as a deity, which catholics don't do.

Do you believe infant baptism is valid?

Yes, of course. I had both of my children baptised as infants.

Do you uphold "counsel's" of men over the Words of God in the Torah?

OVER the word of God? That would not be Catholic. Things like the ecumenical councils are equal to the Bible. Nothing is over the Bible.

Do you believe in apostolic succession, and the Roman Catholic claim that they are the heirs?

Absolutely. This is the main reason I'm a Catholic. Although, the Eastern Orthodox also have apostolic succession.

Do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is "the mother church" and not the bride of Messiah?

It is both.

It may be hard for you to see any MJ group "in Oklahoma" being tolarant of Catholicism because it is so personally abhorrant to you, but I can't imagine there not being a congregation somewhere. I know there are no UMJC congregations in Oklahoma, sorry to say.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I wouldn't normally take an interest in this, but since you made a thread for it, I guess I can give a reaction.

I honestly think many Christian churches (today and of course historically) would throw you out, or not accept you as a member to begin with, if they believed you were keeping Torah.

"Things like the ecumenical councils are equal to the Bible."

Well then why do you keep Torah ?
Isn't it pretty clear Torah-keeping is not what Catholicism is about ?
And isn't it pretty clear the pope and the cardinals, and whichever folks attend these councils, don't keep Torah ?

So to me it seems strange you are keeping a law that your "superiors" in the Catholic hierarchy not only don't keep but have a mission against, and it seems obvious to me that if ecumenical councils have authority, then that is a problem, since these historical councils contradict the scripture and the spirit of scripture, specifically they contradict the validity of Torah.

I have known one or two people who claimed to be Torah-keepers "scattered" within the Mormon church much as you are within the RCC, and that made slightly more sense to me, but still seemed self-defeating and illogical to me, and I think the mainstream Mormons and Catholics would agree with my assessment.

My Catholic family would doubtlessly be surprised to read this thread and scratch their head at the notion that Torah-keeping and Catholicism have anything to do with one another. My grandmother would have been completely taken aback by such ideas.

I am sure many Catholic priests would want to correct you on your "heretical" ideas, if they knew. To my knowledge and in my experience, Torah-keeping is not only uncatholic, (something they neglect to teach,) but something the leaders in the RCC generally work against (something they consider bad).

 

[Meowzltov]

Isn't it pretty clear Torah-keeping is not what Catholicism is about ?

The overwhelming majority of Catholics are not Jews, so there is no Jewish identity for them to be concerned with keeping. Also, the idea of keeping a Jewish identity is a new idea in the Catholic church. Therefore you have something both rare and new, two reasons why the average Catholic is not familiar with it.

Can you name me a Jewish Cardinal? The only one I knew of died. You don't have Torah keeping Cardinals because you don't have Cardinals concerned with keeping a Jewish identity. That doesn't mean this isn't a recognized part of Catholicism.

May I suggest you visit the website for Hebrew Catholics? http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/ I know that until 2005 the bishop over all of us Hebrew Catholics was the Jew, Jean Baptiste Gourion, but I don't know who the present bishop is. In Israel, all the liturgies and prayers have been translated into Hebrew. If you visit our website, you will see that we Hebrew Catholics are just as Catholic as any other Catholics.

For some of us, being a Hebrew Catholic means simply being nostalgic over our Jewish ancestry. For others, it means lighting Sabbath candles. For others such as myself, it means being fully Torah observant. Whatever it means, the Catholic church supports us.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I'm honestly not trying to pick on your or make you feel bad.
For me, this is an intellectual issue.

If I met a Shintoist who claimed keeping Torah was what Shinto was all about, I would not just think that inaccurate, but the Shinto priests and mainstream Shintoists would likewise agree that this is not what Shinto actually is. Catholicism is closer to Judaism than Shinto in many ways, but if you ask the pope or any Catholic priest, I'm sure they will make it clear that they don't keep Torah. Like Shinto, the RCC doesn't teach Torah-keeping to their congregants, and it doesn't have any more Torah-keepers in their leadership than the Shinto religion does.

At the end of the day, if going to the RCC makes you happy and doesn't contradict or counteract your Torah-keeping, good for you. You're an individual with your own individual understanding, and you certainly have that right.

As a person who combines the belief in Yeshua with a belief in Torah, I identify with you. But the difference is that to me the Catholic church and doctrine is obviously anti-Torah, and I hope you are able to realize that I'm not making that up to offend you personally. To me, if I am honest, Catholicism is basically as far removed from the truth, and the Torah, as Protestantism or Mormonism is.

So I think you need to be prepared for the fact that both your fellow MJs and your fellow Catholics will find your individual faith strange. (Again, no offense intended.)

 

[Hoshiyya]

"Can you name me a Jewish Cardinal? The only one I knew of died."

My point is Torah-keeping, not Judaism. We have many gentile Torah-keepers on this forum, and if Catholicism really was about Torah-keeping, I am sure there'd be Torah-keeping Cardinals (both Jewish and Gentile).

There are no Torah-observant Buddhist monks, because Buddhism is not about Torah.
There are no Torah-observant Lutheran priests, because Lutheranism is not about Torah.
There are no Torah-observant Catholic priests, because Catholicism is not about Torah.
I am not saying this to upset you, I am just being honest about something that is completely obvious and uncontroversial (in my view).
I think any Catholic leader will agree with this simple and honest observation.

 

[Meowzltov]

to me the Catholic church and doctrine is obviously anti-Torah

This is where we absolutely positively disagree. Achieving salvation by observing Torah is out, that's true. But for a Jewish Catholic to obey Torah? That's perfectly within Catholic teaching, as I've already discussed, and offered you the Hebrew Catholic website.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I was raised, baptized, and confirmed Episcopalian. I served the priest as an acolyte. Then I fell away from God in my adulthood. I now am a charismatic born-again Christian and I attend a large A of G church. Episcopalian church is the closest protestant church to the Catholic church. We pray many of the same prayers and we both use a prayer book over the Bible in services.

I am now a Hebrew Christian and believe in not only following God's Laws (which are not necessarily 613 ) but that having faith in Jesus is paramount to being able to stay faithful to God's Law, first and foremost.

Do you do the rosary?

I wear a rosary daily around my neck and I pray it with 5 prayers I have adopted for my own beliefs in this order:

1. Lord's Prayer
2. Shema
3. God's Creed
4. Confession of Sins
5. Priestly Blessing

Do you pray to "intermediaries" other than Messiah?

Yes, I do. I pray to God the Father ALHYM (which is all of God and God Almighty) and I pray to my personal God ALYHWA. I pray to Jesus as well, but not as much. I pray to Jesus when I pray with my children, when I need to be healed or to heal, and when I feel in need of redemption.

Do you own any graven images, or icons used for your "holy" observance?

Graven images are a violation of Commandment number 2 of the Decagon. So, no. I had an image of Jesus on my crucifix on my rosary and God specifically told me to remove it, which I did. Now my white MOP cross is bare except for some letters.

Do you believe infant baptism is valid?

Not so much. I believe one needs to be baptized when one becomes born again in the Spirit. However, my person rejects being baptized in my church. I believe baptism should occur in God's waters--in lakes or streams. I am waiting for my Beloved to baptize me in such.

Do you uphold "counsel's" of men over the Words of God in the Torah?

Absolutely not. I believe counsels should only be consulted when contentious issues are at hand which no one person can reconcile. As with what books deserved canonization, etc. God's Word should be studied by individuals and instructed by trusted wise ones of God.

Do you believe in apostolic succession, and the Roman Catholic claim that they are the heirs?

I believe there does exist a hierarchy of Chosen Ones. The more responsibility, the more reward. The more one is trusted and proves worthy of that trust, the more one is honored and even glorified in Heaven. I believe saints have existed, still exist, and will continue to exist. I believe in angels on earth. And demons.

Do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is "the mother church" and not the bride of Messiah?

All church is just about gathering to worship the One Lord GOD Almighty. Jesus said church is His bride. Catholics get some things more right than other denominations, but less right than others. Denominations detract from the truth, which is the devil's aim. Christianity is the only word that matters in religion.

 

[Hoshiyya]

This is where we absolutely positively disagree. Achieving salvation by observing Torah is out, that's true. But for a Jewish Catholic to obey Torah? That's perfectly within Catholic teaching, as I've already discussed, and offered you the Hebrew Catholic website.

I think you are overlooking the weight of my argument, which is that you should be prepared for the fact that other Catholics (including the leadership and the pope), and other MJs, will find your beliefs contradictory.

IF the RCC has ANY tolerance for Torah-observance, I would assume it is meant as a temporal patience, meaning that they ultimately expect or prefer for you to "outgrow" such "anti-Christian tendencies". Likewise they might show especial patience with Muslims coming out of Islam and coming into Catholicism, for the sake of easing their gradual transition.

 

[Meowzltov]

I wear a rosary daily around my neck and I pray it with 5 prayers I have adopted for my own beliefs in this order:

1. Lord's Prayer
2. Shema
3. God's Creed
4. Confession of Sins
5. Priestly Blessing

That's really interesting!!! Do you do these in place of the Our Father (the one bead) or in place of the Hail Mary (the ten beads)?

 

[Hoshiyya]

By the way, this example came to me.

In China, there is a Catholic Communists union.
Now, Communism in its complete form is actually anti-religion, not just anti-Christian, but against all religion.
YET we have folks thinking Communism and Christianity can be combined.
Personally, I think they have an easier time combining their beliefs than it would be to combine Catholicism with MJ or Torah, but it still seems contradictory (to me.)

I just want to say that to many people, including the leaders of your church, the combination of Catholicism and Torah-observance will not make sense.

 

[Meowzltov]

IF the RCC has ANY tolerance for Torah-observance, I would assume it is meant as a temporal patience, meaning that they ultimately expect or prefer for you to "outgrow" such "anti-Christian tendencies".

Certainly there are Catholics with this attitude, but it is NOT the official stance of the Church. Why are you fighting me on this? I know what I'm talking about. I've given you the link. I've told you about our Bishop. Is it really that hard for you to accept?

 

[Meowzltov]

By the way, this example came to me.

In China, there is a Catholic Communists union.
Now, Communism in its complete form is actually anti-religion, not just anti-Christian, but against all religion.
YET we have folks thinking Communism and Christianity can be combined.
Personally, I think they have an easier time combining their beliefs than it would be to combine Catholicism with MJ or Torah, but it still seems contradictory (to me.)

I just want to say that to many people, including the leaders of your church, the combination of Catholicism and Torah-observance will not make sense.

Certainly 20th century communism was atheistic by ideal. However, one only need read the book of Acts to see that the early Church was communistic. We have Liberation theology in the Catholic Church which, although it needs to be tweaked, isn't going to go away. There is certainly room for a blend of Catholicism as some FORM of communism.

Your opinions are only your opinions. I'll stick with what the Catholic church has to say for what is properly Catholic. It's been a nice discussion. Thanks.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

That's really interesting!!! Do you do these in place of the Our Father (the one bead) or in place of the Hail Mary (the ten beads)?

I researched the rosary as to what is actually said in it, and I did not like the repetitions and felt like Jesus spoke against repetitive verses in fact. So I adopted my own rosary as part prayer beads, part glorification of Christ and God, and part reminder that I am beholden to Him for my life and to follow the Law and Prophets (as the tzittizs are for Jews to wear on the borders of their clothing).

I replace the bottom 5 beads with my prayers, starting with "1" closest to the cross. I do not pray the other beads of the rosary.

 

[Lulav]

Moved to its own thread:

I keep the shabbat, eat kosher (even separating meat and dairy), observe the holy days, etc. My church is behind me on this. There was a time in church history where the church was confused and thought that Jews had to become gentiles when we became christians, but praise God the church has a clearer vision now and allows us Jews to keep our Jewish identity.

And now you have Jews supporting that by saying you are no longer Jewish but a gentile and deny your identity because you changed your religion. Funny how that doesn't cross over to other religions like Hindu, Bhai, etc or the lack thereof like atheist, Humanist.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Certainly 20th century communism was atheistic by ideal. However, one only need read the book of Acts to see that the early Church was communistic. We have Liberation theology in the Catholic Church which, although it needs to be tweaked, isn't going to go away. There is certainly room for a blend of Catholicism as some FORM of communism.

Your opinions are only your opinions. I'll stick with what the Catholic church has to say for what is properly Catholic. It's been a nice discussion. Thanks.

And the Popes and cardinals have their opinion too, and it seems they agree: Torah and Catholicism are two separate and unharmonious things.

Catholicism, today and historically, rejects and works AGAINST Torah-keeping. My family is full of Catholics, not one of which keeps Torah, not one of which was ever taught to keep Torah by the RCC, not one of which would consider Torah harmonious with Catholicism.

Some parts of the RCC today, may, perhaps, TOLERATE the fact that you keep Torah in private, but they certain don't endorse it. They might likewise tolerate you being Scientologist in private or Muslim in private as well. Likewise, elements of Islam or Scientology might tolerate you doing whatever you want in private. But that is not the same as endorsing it.

So again I want to emphasize that you shouldn't be surprised that other Catholics and other MJs consider your beliefs contradictory or strange.

 

[Meowzltov]

And now you have Jews supporting that by saying you are no longer Jewish but a gentile and deny your identity because you changed your religion. Funny how that doesn't cross over to other religions like Hindu, Bhai, etc or the lack thereof like atheist, Humanist.

Actually it does cross over to any religion they consider idolatry. Technically they still consider me a Jew now, but the idea is that I will loose my Jewish soul at the resurrection, so they are just "taking a shortcut" by considering me a gentile now. It really depends on the Jew.

I've had just as many Jews work very hard to try and get me back. Have you run across that? I think it's kind of sweet.

But it can be rough too. A few of my Jewish friends have figured out just where my Christian faith is weakest, and push right where those cracks are. I have to take an occasional vacation from them and take time to remember why I returned to the Church.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I can say it like this:

I don't want to be part of a church that merely tolerates private Torah-observance.
I would want to go to a church that was all about Torah, a church where Torah was welcome, and where discussion of it was frequent and positive, like how to apply the commandments.

A religious organization should reflect my religious beliefs. Otherwise, why would I be part of that organization ?

For example, Muslims believe in God, but that's not enough for me to go to the mosque and worship with them. For me to join an organization or frequent a worship service requires me actually agreeing with that organization or group on more than one or two basic points.

I believe in the validity of Torah, so why would I join a religious group that doesn't WHOLEHEARTEDLY base itself on Torah ?

But Open Heart I don't want to come across as arguing with you. But your replies to me have made me feel like you didn't consider my points, which spurred me to try to communicate those points in different ways to see if you would pick up on them.

Just, imagine if a Muslim came and told you that eating swine was actually part of Islam, perfectly okay with Islam. It's like... "okay, how come no other Muslims know about this? How come you're the first Muslim I've met who believes that? Would the Muslim leaders approve of this or agree to this? None of the Muslims I know personally agree with what you're saying."

Wouldn't you be at least surprised ?

 

[Meowzltov]

And the Popes and cardinals have their opinion too, and it seems they agree: Torah and Catholicism are two separate and unharmonious things.

Wrong. You are misrepresenting Catholicism. I don't know why you continue to do so. I have provided you with a link and information to the contrary. Basically what you say was true at one time in history, but is now outdated. Get with it, dude!

 

[Meowzltov]

There are no Torah-observant Catholic priests, because Catholicism is not about Torah.

You are mistaken. I had a wonderful conversation with a Torah observant Catholic priest just last May. He had come over to bless my home, and kissed my Mezuzah. It turned out he was a Crypto-Jew with ancestors from Spain, a fellow Hebrew Catholic. We sat down and talked Jew talk for quite awhile. It was so nice! He was a wonderful priest as well, quite a prayer warrior for the Diocese.

 

[Meowzltov]

But Open Heart I don't want to come across as arguing with you. But your replies to me have made me feel like you didn't consider my points, which spurred me to try to communicate those points in different ways to see if you would pick up on them.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me usually, but not when facts are not in question. There is no doubt where the CC stands on this and so you are misrepresenting the CC, my friend. Your ideas are out of date. I also find it odd that you would think you understand Catholicism better than I do, a Catholic who has made it a point to investigate my faith.