Saturday and Sunday

[Meowzltov]

Nothing is said in Acts 15 about "Love God with all your heart" -- yet Christ insists on it in Matt 22...

Anything Christ said he said to the lost sheep of Israel, not to Gentiles.

It is my opinion that Loving God with all your heart is a universal principal. I thought I mentioned this. Loving God and loving neighbor sums up all the Noahide laws for Gentiles.

 

[Meowzltov]

Ive always said that as well, but Jesus did say he is Lord of the Sabbath, so I would say the Lord's Day would be Saturday over Sunday using scriptures.

Hmmm. I disagree but at least it's an okay argument.

For me, I respect the teaching authority of the Apostolic Fathers, specifically those taught and ordained by the Apostles. I don't think they would deviate from what they were taught, and they had the Apostles trust to teach accurately.

 

[SAAN]

Hmmm. I disagree but at least it's an okay argument.

For me, I respect the teaching authority of the Apostolic Fathers, specifically those taught and ordained by the Apostles. I don't think they would deviate from what they were taught, and they had the Apostles trust to teach accurately.

When I get time one day, I will try to read through all the first century writings. I thought they were supposed to be the actions that followed the apostles, but the messianics I know who have studied first century Judaism claims the church was very anti Jewish, which eventually led to a split between the 2 later on and why their writings seem to be more biased towards Sunday everything. But until I read it for myself I cant come to any conclusions.

 

[Meowzltov]

but the messianics I know who have studied first century Judaism claims the church was very anti Jewish

Yes, the early Church was anti-Judaism after the Bar Kochba rebellion. But you have to remember that at this time, the Pharisees kicked all the Christians out of the synagogues and temple. This made Christianity a new fledgling religion (as opposed to a sect of Judaism). The first order of business was to establish what it was IN CONTRAST TO Judaism. Since the Church at Jerusalem was almost destroyed, the Church became completely Gentile. Therefore in response to Judaism, they said things like, "Jews keep Shabbat, WE keep the Lord's day on Sunday." That would be TRUE for Gentile Christians.

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing is said in Acts 15 about "Love God with all your heart" -- yet Christ insists on it in Matt 22... Is the NT church in Acts 15 acting in opposition to Christ - or are they really thinking that the Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" Commandment of God is important for NT saints?

"What matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19



The point was that Acts 15 is obviously not an exhaustive list of what is applicable to gentiles.

Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 are good examples of what is applicable to gentiles by everyone's standards - and yet by everyone's standards - is not mentioned in Acts 15. The Acts 15 subject was not "let's write a Bible for gentiles" as if scripture had just been tossed out the window and a new OT was needed.

Anything Christ said he said to the lost sheep of Israel, not to Gentiles.

It is my opinion that Loving God with all your heart is a universal principal. I thought I mentioned this. Loving God and loving neighbor sums up all the Noahide laws for Gentiles.

The New Covenant of Jer 31 is in Heb 8 still "with the house of Israel and Judah" -- after the cross. Because as Romans 2 and Romans 9 point out - they considered Gentiles to be part of it.

Paul preaches "Sabbath after Sabbath" to gentiles in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18.

I know of no denomination today that says Christians can ignore God's command to "Love God with all of your heart".

If your argument is that Messianic Jews teach that - or that some Gentile Christians teach it - please tell us who that might be.

Matt 28 Christ specifically says that NT evangelism is to teach the world what Christ taught during HIS ministry.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Some churches would ignore Christ in that case - but not many.

 

[BobRyan]

What had Christ taught them?

Mark 7

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

NT teaching was that "ALL Scripture" was to be used for doctrine - 2Tim 3:16.
NT teaching was "what matters is kEEPing the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
NT teaching was that the issue was based on "He who said" James 2 -- not whatever one could imagine to himself.
NT teaching was that the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
NT teaching was that the scriptures were viewed as "The Holy Spirit said" as in Heb 3 - with authority.
NT teaching in favor of the 5th commandment "this is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 (That only works inside of what scripture defines as the unit of TEN - the TEN Commandments)

Even the RCC admits that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God not limited to just Jews.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What had Christ taught them?

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

NT teaching was that "ALL Scripture" was to be used for doctrine - 2Tim 3:16.
NT teaching was "what matters is kEEPing the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
NT teaching was that the issue was based on "He who said" James 2 -- not whatever one could imagine to himself.
NT teaching was that the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
NT teaching was that the scriptures were viewed as "The Holy Spirit said" as in Heb 3 - with authority.
NT teaching in favor of the 5th commandment "this is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 (That only works inside of what scripture defines as the unit of TEN - the TEN Commandments)

Even the RCC admits that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God not limited to just Jews.

Well, I do not happen to be RCC, so your last comment is meaningless to me.

The bottom line with you and all other purported law-keepers is not whether you obey God's commandments (you don't, nor are you even remotely able to do so) but which commandments you decide are worth obeying and how you decide to modify them in order to obey them. I fear that you labor under the delusion that God is somehow delighted with your self-directed efforts to reform His commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

The lost "Do not and can not" obey God according to Romans 8:5-8.. we can all see that.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

(Hence my signature line)

So while your post appears to accuse me of being in that wicked group - i think you are wrong about that.

 

[Meowzltov]

The New Covenant of Jer 31 is in Heb 8 still "with the house of Israel and Judah" -- after the cross. Because as Romans 2 and Romans 9 point out - they considered Gentiles to be part of it.

Paul preaches "Sabbath after Sabbath" to gentiles in Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18.

I know of no denomination today that says Christians can ignore God's command to "Love God with all of your heart".

Gentiles are not part of Israel, only part of the commonwealth.

If you think that I was saying Christians don't have to Love God with all of your heart, then you need to review my previous posts. I stated that this was a universal principle, but for Gentiles Loving God only means to keep the universal commands regarding God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The lost "Do not and can not" obey God according to Romans 8:5-8.. we can all see that.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

(Hence my signature line)

So while your post appears to accuse me of being in that wicked group - i think you are wrong about that.

Am I correct in thinking you are responding to my post? It would help if you would quote the post to which you are responding.

If you are seeking to please God by your obedience to His law, I suggest you take the matter seriously and understand that He is not pleased with anyone who picks and chooses which laws to obey and then modifies those laws to fit their own interests and abilities. I think you probably agree with that, do you not?

 

[Meowzltov]

The lost "Do not and can not" obey God according to Romans 8:5-8.. we can all see that.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

These verses say no such thing. Plus it is obvious many non-Christians obey laws like don't murder, don't steal, etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

These verses say no such thing.

We differ

Plus it is obvious many non-Christians obey laws like don't murder, don't steal, etc.

The point is that the Bible itself says that saints "KEEP the Commandments of God" Rev 14:12
and that the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1

Even the RCC's only John Paul II in Dies Domini argues that the TEN commandments are the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

======================

So then all the more important for all to notice Christ's teaching on this point.

What had Christ taught them?

Mark 7

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

NT teaching was that "ALL Scripture" was to be used for doctrine - 2Tim 3:16.
NT teaching was "what matters is kEEPing the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
NT teaching was that the issue was based on "He who said" James 2 -- not whatever one could imagine to himself.
NT teaching was that the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
NT teaching was that the scriptures were viewed as "The Holy Spirit said" as in Heb 3 - with authority.
NT teaching in favor of the 5th commandment "this is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 (That only works inside of what scripture defines as the unit of TEN - the TEN Commandments)

Even the RCC admits that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God not limited to just Jews.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

We differ

The point is that the Bible itself says that saints "KEEP the Commandments of God" Rev 14:12
and that the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1

Even the RCC's only John Paul II in Dies Domini argues that the TEN commandments are the moral law of God applicable to all mankind.

======================

So then all the more important for all to notice Christ's teaching on this point.

What had Christ taught them?

Mark 7

6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

NT teaching was that "ALL Scripture" was to be used for doctrine - 2Tim 3:16.
NT teaching was "what matters is kEEPing the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
NT teaching was that the issue was based on "He who said" James 2 -- not whatever one could imagine to himself.
NT teaching was that the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
NT teaching was that the scriptures were viewed as "The Holy Spirit said" as in Heb 3 - with authority.
NT teaching in favor of the 5th commandment "this is the First Commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 (That only works inside of what scripture defines as the unit of TEN - the TEN Commandments)

Even the RCC admits that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God not limited to just Jews.

I remain perplexed that you seem to keep preaching to a non-existent audience of RCC's. I am certainly not one of that audience so your comments are meaningless to me.

On another note, the text does not say that the saints must keep the commandments or that they are required to keep the commandments. It is descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[Meowzltov]

Even the RCC admits that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God not limited to just Jews.

The Catholic church says this out of one side of its mouth and then out of the other side says we don't have to keep the sabbath. The truth is that it's just more complicated.

 

[BobRyan]

I remain perplexed that you seem to keep preaching to a non-existent audience of RCC's. I am certainly not one of that audience so your comments are meaningless to me.

On another note, the text does not say that the saints must keep the commandments or that they are required to keep the commandments. It is descriptive, not prescriptive.

We differ

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
The Westminster Confession of Faith
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
C.H. Spurgeon
Matthew Henry

So not just the RCC admitting to these Bible details

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Ex 20:6 "love Me and keep My Commandments"

John 14:15 "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING God's Commandments"

Rev 14:12 the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

 

[Berean777]

Outward observances in the new covenant age is considered fruitless idolatrous practices. The Kingdom of God is within the believer where the Lord of the Sabbath dwells. If we start following outward ordinances then we are following fleshly mosaic covenant. Does that mean we have to do sacrifices, circumcisions, sabbaths and so on and so on?

All the apostles said No!

We are inwardly worshipping God in spirit and no longer do we follow outward ordinances because they are made fruitless within the constructs of the new covenant faith system.

Those old covenant ordanances are incompatible with the new covenant question of worship.

 

[Meowzltov]

Those old covenant ordanances are incompatible with the new covenant question of worship.

Sorry Berean, I just disagree with your whole line of reasoning.

 

[Berean777]

Sorry Berean, I just disagree with your whole line of reasoning.

Why?

 

[Meowzltov]

Why?

It neglects to note that the apostles themselves were observant of the law. Or that the entire Jewish Church in Jerusalem under James was Torah observant. Acts 21:20 "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for Torah."

You see I think that the apostles taught just as the Jews taught: that the 613 laws were for Jews but not for gentiles, that gentiles were to keep only the universal laws. So a Jew would keep sabbath but not a gentile. This is why James, who dealt primarily with Jews, had them keeping the laws, while paul, who dealt primarily with gentiles, did not.

 

[Berean777]

It neglects to note that the apostles themselves were observant of the law. Or that the entire Jewish Church in Jerusalem under James was Torah observant. Acts 21:20 "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for Torah."

You see I think that the apostles taught just as the Jews taught: that the 613 laws were for Jews but not for gentiles, that gentiles were to keep only the universal laws. So a Jew would keep sabbath but not a gentile. This is why James, who dealt primarily with Jews, had them keeping the laws, while paul, who dealt primarily with gentiles, did not.

Paul was told to put his customary Jewish outfit on and portray himself under the law to show to the Jews that the Jewish apostles are not teaching contrary to the law of Moses. James then states that the Gentiles are not to follow this instruction. Then Paul set out to convince the Torah observers, all the while the opposition were accusing the apostles of being against the people, and the law, and this place (Temple): and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place (Temple).

It is clear that in order for the apostles to appease the Jews to get a hear in by them, they must be seen to follow the Jewish customary ways. They did so as a Trojan Horse to penetrate the hearts of the Torah observers without being detected, dismissed and kicked out without getting the chance to preach to their own people.

The apostles used this method as a Trojan horse to achieve their directive to preach the gospel into the hearts of the citizens all the while, while appearing to not have left Torah observances. This is evident because of the ways they were kicked out a number of times from the temple, whenever they tried to access the hearts of Jews in preaching to them.

What gives this away is that the accusers tried to portray the apostles in a bad light to show that they even brought along with them Greeks to the temple, hence polluting the Holy place.

That is why Paul is instructed by James:

Acts 21:23-24
Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Paul was instructed to just pretend and put on the cover of an obedient Torah observer. James didn't say observe the Torah, quiet the opposite. So that this pretentious act isn't witnessed and talked about by the believing Gentiles, James would further instruct to tell the Gentiles the following:

Acts 21:25
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

It would be hypocritical for the apostles to ask Paul to observe the Torah whilst deliberately instructing the Gentiles that they are not to. This pretentious ACT, hence the ACT OF THE APOSTLES, by the apostles was just to fish along their own people by pretending to be observers of the law, nothing more and nothing less.

God bless