The Confederate Flag

[outsidethecamp]

Being on the winning side hath its privileges.

It's not good to "win" that way. 600,000 Americans died in "The War of Northern Aggression"

Do you recall that South Carolina threatened to secede in the late 1830s because of high tariffs? Gunboats were sent to the coast, troops were mobilized, South Carolina authorized the purchase of arms to fight a northern invasion, and only when the north sought compromise on the issue did South Carolina back down. We almost fought a Civil War in the late 1830s and it had nothing -- zip, zero, nada -- to do with slavery.

Tariffs had peaked in the 1820s and 1830s and were lower by the time of the Civil War, when they were raised again. The Morrell bill tripled the tariff, and that they were soon to be raised even more?

Remember (assuming you ever knew) that 4 of the 13 Union states -- plus the chunk of Virginia that later became West Virginia -- were slave holding states. Remember also that slavery was allowed to continue in the north and the occupied portions of the southern states until almost a year after the war ended.

Due to the recession in the North of 1857-58, and the excessive infrastructure spending by Congress, the Federal Debt had swelled to unprecedented levels. And with 98% of the US Treasury dependent on tariff revenue, and that being fed by Southern produced goods (gone as of Feb., 1861) to the tune of at the very least 65% of the total revenue, on March 4, 1861 the Federal government was broke. The Southern states seceded for a variety of reasons, but Lincoln, hounded by bankers and businessmen, brought the fight South to protect the US Treasury.

Interesting how history repeats itself...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Let's go with that reasoning for a minute. Millions of people see evil in the "peace sign" and also the square and compass of Freemasonry. Is there a moral obligation for society to ban their display, therefore? For that matter, millions of people (including some here) think that Christianity has blood on its hands because of events in the history of the church(es). Should the display of the Cross be banned?

I don't think that the Confederate flag should be banned.

I'm saying only that many people are offended by the flag. In some situations, people who are sensitive to this offense may decide to err on the side of civility and not brandish the flag in a way that will cause offense to others.

(Incidentally, I don't think that the German swastika should be banned either.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Armoured]

The intent of the user is not always obvious, and symbols may offend for perfectly rational reasons. I have little doubt that many Southerners don't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery, but people who understand that slavery was one of the biggest stated motivations for secession can hardly be faulted by being offended.


eudaimonia,

Mark

As I say. People make assumptions about the symbols people display. If most people display the confederate flag to show support for racist ideals, then it is reasonable to assume that is what someone is doing if they are using one.

However... IF the user explains their position and it has nothing to do with racism, I don't believe the symbol should be considered offensive.

I explained to someone earlier, some of my earliest memories are of watching the Dukes of Hazzard with my dad aged about 3. I'm pretty sure my affection for the Confederate flag stems from then. I also think the martial achievements of the CSA military were laudable. I don't endorse slavery, I think it's an abhorrent institution. I support racial equality and justice at law, too.

But I like and own a few versions of the confederate flag. So is it racist when I use it?

I have an SS battle flag for similar reasons (to wit, it looks cool) but I don't think it's inherently racist. I wouldn't fly it outside my home, though, because I don't want to have this conversation with every single incensed passer by, who, quite justifiably, would probably assume the worst.

 

[The Cadet]

No doubt the cultural imperialist in the thread will tell us how these people are evil horrible racist.

Because you know, if a symbol means something to an American it's gotta mean that everywhere.

It's not just the symbol, though. It's the full outfit. These people aren't wearing that costume because they like little squiggly thingies on red armbands or because the reversed swastika has some other cultural meaning to them, they're wearing it specifically to emulate the nazis. And this has some rather unfortunate implications, particularly with regard to what Armoured wrote:

IIRC, it's a themed wedding. In Asia, Nazis are just seen as "cool baddies" by many people, much like how we view pirates here in the West. The intent is roughly as racist as a themed Star Wars wedding here.

The problem being, everyone knows Star Wars was a movie. The nazis were a real group with real and very significant geopolitical impact on the region, and their crimes ought to be remembered as such. It's not cultural imperialism to remind people that the SS were not cool people. It's cultural revisionism to ignore the historical context of that uniform, and particularly nasty revisionism given that it has to do with possibly the most successful attempt at genocide in human history.

Speaking of which, how 'bout that Civil War battle flag, huh? :V

 

[Albion]

I don't think that the Confederate flag should be banned.

I'm saying only that many people are offended by the flag. In some situations, people who are sensitive to this offense may decide to err on the side of civility.

(Incidentally, I don't think that the German swastika should be banned either.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

I'm glad you took the time to make this reply. I was more or less dropping in on the conversation and posted what I did in order to make the point, but not to "take on" any particular poster. I agree with you here.

The idea of freedom of expression is just great with a lot of people...UNTIL someone expresses a thought that they don't like and...Bam...freedom of expression becomes intolerable.

 

[Armoured]

The problem being, everyone knows Star Wars was a movie. The nazis were a real group with real and very significant geopolitical impact on the region, and their crimes ought to be remembered as such. It's not cultural imperialism to remind people that the SS were not cool people. It's cultural revisionism to ignore the historical context of that uniform, and particularly nasty revisionism given that it has to do with possibly the most successful attempt at genocide in human history.

Speaking of which, how 'bout that Civil War battle flag, huh? :V

And yet we dress little kids up as vikings and pirates and coo at how cute they are. Wanna take a stab at how many people have been killed, raped and maimed by pirates over the years? I say again, it is the intent of the user, not the symbol itself, that is either offensive or not.

Ditto the Confederate flag.

 

[Eudaimonist]

As I say. People make assumptions about the symbols people display.

Symbols have meanings beyond whatever some individual had intended in a specific case. Perhaps it is unfair to some innocent Southerner who thought that flying the Confederate flag meant Gone With the Wind, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Southern hospitality, but meanings are larger than individual intent. People are going to make judgments based on...oh, I don't know...the factual role of racism and slavery in Southern secession? That is what causes offense, not some individual's intent.

But I like and own a few versions of the confederate flag. So is it racist when I use it?

No, but it will offend people who see the very real connection between the flag and racism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[outsidethecamp]

In the era I grew up that flag was associated with personal liberty, independence, and resistance to government totalitarianism. Those were the reasons it was a standard motif on so much merchandise all over the country from t-shirts to bumper stickers. It was not, to the vast majority of Americans, a representation of racism. Nor was it for most southerners I have spoken with who told me it was really a symbol they associated with their sense of southern identity sans-racism.

I think it's the left becoming ever more radical and hysterical as they push for more and more government totalitarianism. It will only end when the oppression becomes so burdensome and persecutory even to those on the left, that a movement grows large enough to throw off the yoke. I hope that happens before the left turns the Bill of Rights into a roll of toilet paper.

Calls to Cut Ties to Symbols of the South
Read all the articles on this page.

How about just cut all ties with the South? Then the Federalies won't have to spend so much time controlling people.

 

[KWCrazy]

Everything I said was accurate.

It was a parole violation. Whoever told you that he was arrested simply for making a video like that lied.

Ever hear of freedom of speech? That includes the freedom to make fun of 55 year-olds who have sex with 9 year-old "wives." Mohammed was an evil man, but beyond that in America we USED TO have the freedom to make movies without the permission of the Muslim community.

 

[Armoured]

Symbols have meanings beyond whatever some individual had intended in a specific case. Perhaps it is unfair to some innocent Southerner who thought that flying the Confederate flag meant Gone With the Wind, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Southern hospitality, but meanings are larger than individual intent. People are going to make judgments based on...oh, I don't know...the factual role of racism and slavery in Southern secession? That is what causes offense, not some individual's intent.



No, but it will offend people who see the very real connection between the flag and racism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Why doesn't the users intent trump the prejudgement? If there's no intent to offend, just what is the point at getting offended by an inanimate thing?

 

[TerranceL]

The intent of the user is not always obvious, and symbols may offend for perfectly rational reasons. I have little doubt that many Southerners don't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of slavery, but people who understand that slavery was one of the biggest stated motivations for secession can hardly be faulted by being offended.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Offense is taken not given, getting butthurt over a flag is silly.

What's next? Should we stop flying the American flag? For many around the world it's a symbol of imperialism and terrorism.

What about the cross? Some people like to bring up the crusades...
Or what about the Star of David? There's quite a lot of folks who hate what the jewish state has done to palestine.

At what point do we stop giving attention to professional umbrage takers?

 

[outsidethecamp]

Everything I said was accurate.

Ever hear of freedom of speech? That includes the freedom to make fun of 55 year-olds who have sex with 9 year-old "wives." Mohammed was an evil man, but beyond that in America we USED TO have the freedom to make movies without the permission of the Muslim community.

Yeah, funny how the Administration and the Press are already observing Sharia law.

Pretty soon it will be illegal to say anything untoward (speak the truth) about Islam. You know, it's not good to speak the truth. It exposes people and makes them angry, and we can't have that.

 

[The Cadet]

In the era I grew up that flag was associated with personal liberty, independence, and resistance to government totalitarianism. Those were the reasons it was a standard motif on so much merchandise all over the country from t-shirts to bumper stickers. It was not, to the vast majority of Americans, a representation of racism. Nor was it for most southerners I have spoken with who told me it was really a symbol they associated with their sense of southern identity sans-racism.

How bizarre is that, though? The flag was a symbol of a traitorous, racist band who split the nation and caused the war with the most US casualties. It was what they carried into battle. Why in the world would anyone want to associate that with their culture? The only reason I can think of is because they didn't see their history as racist or morally wrong, which, at this point, is straight-up revisionism.

That is why it's so important to separate the south not from southern symbols, but from the confederate symbols. Because every time you insist that that flag has no racist heritage, that it is not drenched in the blood of slaves and the sin of the transatlantic slave trade, you perpetuate this myth, this revisionist history of America where the south wasn't fighting for white supremacy and the right to own Africans as property. And this stuff matters. America has enough issues with race - can we at least get this one right?

How about just cut all ties with the South? Then the Federalies won't have to spend so much time controlling people.

And people wonder why I worry about this sort of historical revisionism. Those who do not learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat them. And we can't really afford another secession. Not with nuclear silos dotted across both halves of the nation.

 

[The Cadet]

Yeah, funny how the Administration and the Press are already observing Sharia law.

How is this a thing? How is this even a thing?

I don't get it. Was there always this counterculture of persistent misinformation in America? Was there always this many people this consistently willing to swallow a lie, hook line and sinker?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-muslim-filmmaker-sentenced-to-one-year-for-probation-violation/

The man is a career criminal who got arrested for violating the conditions of his parole. Included in those conditions were that he not take on a fake identity - kind of important, given that that's one of the things that got him in trouble in the first place. This myth, this ridiculous lie that the man was arrested for making a movie? It's wrong. It's completely and utterly wrong, and you should think twice before trusting anything whoever told you that says in the future.

 

[TerranceL]

It's not just the symbol, though. It's the full outfit. These people aren't wearing that costume because they like little squiggly thingies on red armbands or because the reversed swastika has some other cultural meaning to them, they're wearing it specifically to emulate the nazis. And this has some rather unfortunate implications, particularly with regard to what Armoured wrote:

So you will make bigoted assumptions of them without understanding their culture and reasoning.

The problem being, everyone knows Star Wars was a movie. The nazis were a real group with real and very significant geopolitical impact on the region, and their crimes ought to be remembered as such. It's not cultural imperialism to remind people that the SS were not cool people.

It most certainly is cultural imperialism to assume that because something offends your western sensibility it should offend everones.

It's cultural revisionism to ignore the historical context of that uniform, and particularly nasty revisionism given that it has to do with possibly the most successful attempt at genocide in human history.

You don't understand what the world revisionism means. Nobody is claiming that the holocaust didn't happen, just that people of another culture might not relate a uniform with it. What do you think they were thinking? "Gosh genocide is cool, I want to get married in this uniform to show just how cool it was." Or could they perhaps have other reason for wanting to do it?

Speaking of which, how 'bout that Civil War battle flag, huh? :V

What about it?

 

[Dave-W]

Remember (assuming you ever knew) that 4 of the 13 Union states - ... - were slave holding states.

One of them - my current state of residency Maryland - ONLY stayed in the Union because Prez Lincoln arrested the entire legislature the evening before the scheduled vote for secession. They remained in jail with no charges until the end of the war.

 

[TerranceL]

Why doesn't the users intent trump the prejudgement? If there's no intent to offend, just what is the point at getting offended by an inanimate thing?

Because there is in the west, power in proclaiming yourself offended.

 

[Albion]

One of them - my current state of residency Maryland - ONLY stayed in the Union because Prez Lincoln arrested the entire legislature the evening before the scheduled vote for secession. They remained in jail with no charges until the end of the war.

Why...that's wrong! It's evil. We should forbid the US flag from flying over any Union soldiers' monuments since they fought for tyranny! We're all against tyranny, aren't we?

 

[TerranceL]

The flag was a symbol of a traitorous

So is the American flag. Find another talking point.

 

[Armoured]

Yeah, funny how the Administration and the Press are already observing Sharia law.

OK, explain that one, please?