did you know!

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You still have not answered the question. It seems that you are avoiding answering. What do you suppose He meant when He said that? By saying what He did, it seems that Jesus thinks Torah won't go away until the future. Jesus fulfilled what He was sent here to earth to do, "that whosoever believed on Him would not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:16-17) He accomplished that.

I don't have any problem with this first paragraph. It is evident that the early church teachers used the Torah because that is all they had, but the 40 days that Jesus spent with the disciples after His resurrection would not have been wasted time. He would have gone through the Torah to show all the scriptures that related to Him, just as He did with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. Notice that when the Torah is quoted in the book of Acts and anywhere else in the New Testament that it is adapted to suit the teaching of the Apostle concerned. So this makes me think that the New Testament teachers changed the wording of the Torah to suit New Covenant principles.

There is no requirement that we subject to the law in order to be saved. However, it is still in effect as to how we live...not in order to be saved, but to be righteous. The writer of Romans did not say "quit handing the members of your body over to sin but instead hand them over to God's Righteousness" just to fill in the empty space on the paper he was writing on. "Being IN Christ" does not cancel our subjection to His righteousness and in fact will cause us to subject to His righteousness more.

Here is where your definition of righteousness is not consistent with scripture. The righteousness that believers have is the righteousness of Christ bestowed as a gift upon them, not something they have to live up to before they receive it. We don't earn righteousness, we are gifted with it. God sees us as righteous before we start behaving any different. It is because we are already righteous in Christ that we depend on the Holy Spirit to cause our minds and conduct to be conformed to that of Christ. We are not subjection to His righteousness, because we already have His righteousness. What you seem to be saying is that in order to be righteous we have to come to some standard of morality. But whose standard is that? If we can't live up to God's standards, then what do we do? The scripture says that we are not condemned if we are in Christ, so God must be ignoring our sinful behaviour. Might that be because it is not an issue to Him seeing that Jesus paid the full price for our sins. But we are subject to something that changes our behaviour, and it is not a set of moral rules, even if they are in the Torah. What we are subject to is the love, peace, joyfulness, goodness, kindness, patience, gentleness and faithfulness of God, because that is how He is and how Jesus is, and how the Holy Spirit is as well, and that is how He wants us to be, and so the Holy Spirit makes it possible in us.

]quote]I think in some ways we are saying the same thing...other than what Jesus said about the Torah not passing away until heaven and earth did. I would still like your take on that sentence. Why did Jesus say it if it's useless info?[/QUOTE]

Jesus said something interesting, He said that if we love God with all our hearts, and love our neighbour as ourselves, then this covers the whole Law and the prophets. So Jesus is still being consistent with His statement about the Torah not passing away, because He says that love for God and for our neighbour covers all the requirements of the Torah. This is an upgrade on the Torah. It does not cancel the Torah at all, but it applies the Torah in a very different way, because one has to be born again of the Spirit of God and be able to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit in order to love God with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves and thus observe the Torah by being in Christ and depending on the Holy Spirit to change us from glory to glory so that we are fully Christlike in our attitudes and conduct.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I don't have any problem with this first paragraph. It is evident that the early church teachers used the Torah because that is all they had, but the 40 days that Jesus spent with the disciples after His resurrection would not have been wasted time. He would have gone through the Torah to show all the scriptures that related to Him, just as He did with the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. Notice that when the Torah is quoted in the book of Acts and anywhere else in the New Testament that it is adapted to suit the teaching of the Apostle concerned. So this makes me think that the New Testament teachers changed the wording of the Torah to suit New Covenant principles.

Nowhere in the NT do the apostles "adapt" the Torah to their teaching. That would be no different than what our modern teachers do when they want to push a certain teaching that is way out in left field somewhere. Jesus did not need to show them what scriptures referred to Him, they knew Torah already and that is why they believed on Him, because they saw it. The NT is full with all the writers references to Torah and they consistently compare it with their teachings.

Here is where your definition of righteousness is not consistent with scripture. The righteousness that believers have is the righteousness of Christ bestowed as a gift upon them, not something they have to live up to before they receive it. We don't earn righteousness, we are gifted with it. God sees us as righteous before we start behaving any different. It is because we are already righteous in Christ that we depend on the Holy Spirit to cause our minds and conduct to be conformed to that of Christ. We are not subjection to His righteousness, because we already have His righteousness. What you seem to be saying is that in order to be righteous we have to come to some standard of morality. But whose standard is that? If we can't live up to God's standards, then what do we do? The scripture says that we are not condemned if we are in Christ, so God must be ignoring our sinful behaviour. Might that be because it is not an issue to Him seeing that Jesus paid the full price for our sins. But we are subject to something that changes our behaviour, and it is not a set of moral rules, even if they are in the Torah. What we are subject to is the love, peace, joyfulness, goodness, kindness, patience, gentleness and faithfulness of God, because that is how He is and how Jesus is, and how the Holy Spirit is as well, and that is how He wants us to be, and so the Holy Spirit makes it possible in us.

I never said that we earn righteousness, that's impossible. No, I'm not saying that in order to be righteous we have to come to some standard of morality...there could be nothing further from the truth. I never said we have to live up to God's standards. That too is impossible. I have said several times the we are to depend on the Holy Spirit to cause our minds and conduct to be conformed to that of Christ. I've said several times that those who are in Christ are not condemned. I don't believe though that God is "ignoring" bad behavior. He's always working in us His will and ways. Jesus paid the price for our sins, but that is not a free pass to continue to live as if nothing has changed but you're still saved, yeah. Yuk! I agree we are subject to love, peace, joy, goodness, kindness, patience, gentleness and faithfulness and have never said anything different. I believe my definition is consistent with scripture, I'm just not quite saying it in a way that's coming across so that you understand what I'm saying. It seems the more I try, the more it's misunderstood.

Jesus said something interesting, He said that if we love God with all our hearts, and love our neighbour as ourselves, then this covers the whole Law and the prophets. So Jesus is still being consistent with His statement about the Torah not passing away, because He says that love for God and for our neighbour covers all the requirements of the Torah. This is an upgrade on the Torah. It does not cancel the Torah at all, but it applies the Torah in a very different way, because one has to be born again of the Spirit of God and be able to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit in order to love God with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves and thus observe the Torah by being in Christ and depending on the Holy Spirit to change us from glory to glory so that we are fully Christlike in our attitudes and conduct.

I agree if we love God with all our heart and love our neighbor as our self that that covers the whole law. I have never said anything different. It's not an upgrade though, it is a compilation. If you look at the 10 commandments they are split into two sections...one applies to our relationship to God, the other our relationship with people. It all boils down to love. If we "love", truly love, we will not do anything that hurts God or our neighbor. So, if we're doing things that are opposite the way God shows us in scripture to act toward Him and our neighbor we are not loving. That's nothing to be condemned about, but we do need to repent and then move closer to Him, not continue to live as pleases us.

 

[Frogster]

Notice that at the start of Romans 7 Paul says that he is speaking to those under the Law, which means that he was not speaking to Christian believers at that point. He realised that Jews under the Law would be reading his letter, so he inserts a chapter just for them so they can be aware of the issues between Law and grace. So, it is wrong to apply Romans 7 to Christian believers when Paul is quite clear that he was writing to unconverted Jews at that point. Paul was telling the unconverted Jews of his own experience under the Law and the change of thinking that came with his conversion to Christ.

Red above, no the letter was written to Christians, Jews and Greeks, 'bothers" in 7:1, and it does not say "under the law" it says "know the law".


7 Or do you not know, brothers for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?

It actually does not say THE law in that verse, it says just law in the Greek manuscripts, Rome was noted for it's laws, gentiles would understand that, and besides after 15 centuries of law, the Greeks had a general knowledge of the code also, Judaism was the accepted religion of the Roman gov. Paul then goes into THE law, and again the Gentiles knew just what he meant anyway.

 

[Frogster]

The fulfillment took place on the cross. If it didn't, then Jesus could not have been a complete Saviour for us. He did not say as He was dying, "It is partly finished", did He?

well, the law word, nomos can be broad in meaning, the OT in general, and there could still be some things in the OT (law/nomos) that will come to pass.

But yes, the Mosaic code is fulfilled , and long gone, the ministry of death and condemnation, as per 2 Cor 3:7, and 3:9 is abolished.

Nomos can mean principle, Rom 7:21 NASB, 3:27, etc, or the Mosaic code, or the OT om a whole, or the Psalms etc. Paul called IS about tongues in 1 Cor 14 the law, and Jesus called the Psalms the law in John 10 and 15. In Rom 3:10-18, Paul uses IS, the Psalms, and proverbs, as he soon calls it all the law in 3:19.

All showing that we have to know what "law" is being spoken of, but again, the antiquated Mosaic code is all over, amen!

 

[Svt4Him]

Did you know, it doesn't say in the OT Jonah was in the belly of a whale?

Also did you know the Scope's Monkey Trial was lost by Scopes, and he was forced to pay a fine?

 

[Frogster]

Notice that at the start of Romans 7 Paul says that he is speaking to those under the Law, which means that he was not speaking to Christian believers at that point. He realised that Jews under the Law would be reading his letter, so he inserts a chapter just for them so they can be aware of the issues between Law and grace. So, it is wrong to apply Romans 7 to Christian believers when Paul is quite clear that he was writing to unconverted Jews at that point. Paul was telling the unconverted Jews of his own experience under the Law and the change of thinking that came with his conversion to Christ.

when Israel got the law they were already dead, all were according to Rom 5.

For Paul to say he was alive, when the commandment came, had to be after conversion, when else was he alive, and apart from the law?

9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

We cant die twice, there had to be life in the middle, for Paul to die when the command came, that had to be after conversion, in order to die. He was already dead preconversion, as Israel was, when Israel got the law they were dead already, as all unsaved are, they did not die then, as Paul did not die then..all died in Adam, before the law Rom 5.

For Paul to be alive, then die after the command, that had to be after conversion, when else was he alive, to be able to die? He was dead, as Israel was when they got the command, they could not die twice, unless they were made alive after the first death from Adam.

 

[Frogster]

You still have not answered the question. It seems that you are avoiding answering. What do you suppose He meant when He said that? By saying what He did, it seems that Jesus thinks Torah won't go away until the future. Jesus fulfilled what He was sent here to earth to do, "that whosoever believed on Him would not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:16-17) He accomplished that.

There is no requirement that we subject to the law in order to be saved. However, it is still in effect as to how we live...not in order to be saved, but to be righteous. The writer of Romans did not say "quit handing the members of your body over to sin but instead hand them over to God's Righteousness" just to fill in the empty space on the paper he was writing on. "Being IN Christ" does not cancel our subjection to His righteousness and in fact will cause us to subject to His righteousness more.

I think in some ways we are saying the same thing...other than what Jesus said about the Torah not passing away until heaven and earth did. I would still like your take on that sentence. Why did Jesus say it if it's useless info?

No, Rom 1:17 says from faith to faith, the just shall LIVE by faith, it does not day from faith to law.