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Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Yoder777

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I just visited the local SGI center in order to see what they are really all about. The members were very well meaning and friendly, but they didn't appear to know much about Buddhism or its history outside of SGI-approved literature. The chanting was too loud and fast for my taste, and I missed there being a statue or picture of the Buddha instead of a scroll at the altar. This experience helped to confirm that Jodo Shinshu Buddhism is the right path for me.

The teachings as expressed at the SGI center were almost entirely self-help oriented, very this-world focused. They seem to define Buddhahood almost entirely in terms of worldly happiness, whereas Jodo Shinshu teaching seems to be at a deeper level than that. I am only trying to explain why SGI may not be right for me, not to bad mouth them.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I just visited the local SGI center in order to see what they are really all about.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what does SGI stand for? I'm not familiar with the acronym.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Yoder777

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Eudaimonist

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Soka Gakkai International. They are often regarded as a cult, or at least a controversial sect, even by practicing Buddhists

Interesting. I'm especially struck by one statement in the article:

In cults, there’s a common phenomenon known as “thought stopping,” a learned response to information and ideas that threaten or contradict the group’s teachings.

This sounds precisely like one of the three methods of mental control mentioned in George Orwell's novel 1984. Everyone remembers one of them -- doublethink -- but the most basic technique is called crimestop, which is defined pretty much the same way as thought stopping above. Crimestop is the fundamental way to avoid thoughtcrime.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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smaneck

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The teachings as expressed at the SGI center were almost entirely self-help oriented, very this-world focused.

I thought they were more focused on the pursuit of world peace. I presented a paper once at a conference they held in Canada.
 
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ananda

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I must be honest that my knowledge of Buddhism is mostly limited to Pure Land Buddhism, which happens to be the most commonly practiced form of Mahayana Buddhism in the East.
Why do you (seemingly) reject Theravada then, if you have little knowledge of it, if I may ask?
 
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Yoder777

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I thought they were more focused on the pursuit of world peace. I presented a paper once at a conference they held in Canada.

World peace is only one aspect of their teaching, which they refer to as Humanistic Buddhism.
 
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Yoder777

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Why do you (seemingly) reject Theravada then, if you have little knowledge of it, if I may ask?

Shinran Shonin is famous for explaining the contradiction in relying solely on your own efforts, as Theravada Buddhists do, in a religion which claims to be about overcoming or abandoning your ego-self. Shin Buddhism is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan. Shinran taught salvation by grace through faith, three hundred years before Martin Luther, by trusting in the immeasurable compassion of Amida Buddha...

I have admired Shinran Shonin precisely because he recognized that to be able to truly and deeply come to trust in Amida’s Vow one must admit to the reality of one’s True Self. His writings abound with statements on how important it is to see the true "evil"-nature of one's self. ["Evil" had a more specific, slightly different, meaning to Shinran in this context] This self-condemnation was not just an exercise in humility, but represents an essential step in the process for weakening the illusion of power held by the ego-self. Without this deep, almost shame filled admission one cannot deeply realize that dependence on self, ego, self-power, will fail to help us in achieving enlightenment. And if one does not seek enlightenment one is destined to return again and again into the world of birth-and-death.To be Buddhist is to seek enlightenment, or release from this world of birth-and-death. Shinran and Honen proclaimed that the “old” or “traditional” practices of achieving enlightenment, namely the Path of Sages, were now out of reach for most people, even the current monks of his day, because they “lack clear insight into the teaching and are ignorant of the distinction between true and provisional.” This was not just a judgment about the other monks, but an admission about his own ability, too. Thus, for Shinran, the name “Gutoku” expressed his ultimate realization about his True Self.

I believe that this realization must be firmly acknowledged BEFORE one can even attempt to practice the qualities of a bodhisattva, namely, compassion, or even true gratitude. Without this realization, people who seek to practice as bodhisattvas prematurely will find it so difficult, if not impossible, to always be “kind and gentle to every living being.” Until we acknowledge our True Self, we practice from a false center, an inauthentic center, and thus our 'practice' fails.

Although we rely upon Amida Buddha for our 'Birth' or enlightenment, this realization of our True Self is something that each of us must do for ourselves. It is not for anyone else to tell us that we are ignorant, or unaware or unenlightened. That’s why the most important thing to remember is that we should pay attention to our own minds first. Getting caught up in criticizing others does not benefit one’s spiritual development, it actually distracts us, as we become consumed with the belief that we know what is ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ for ourselves and others. Shinran firmly rejected such thinking.

I know nothing at all of good or evil. For if I could know thoroughly, as Amida Tathagata knows, that an act was good, then I would know good. If I could know thoroughly, as the Tathagata knows, that an act was evil, then I would know evil. But with a foolish being full of blind passions, in this fleeting world—this burning house—all matters without exception are empty and false, totally without truth and sincerity. The nembutsu alone is true and real.

— from A Record in Lament of Divergences, Postscript, The Collected Works of Shinran, Vol. I. Jodo Shinshu Hongwanji-ha, Kyoto. 1997.

Shinran chose his name ‘Gutoku’ not to set himself below others around him, but to remind himself that because he recognized the raw naked truth about his ego-self, he could rely absolutely, without a doubt, without hesitation, upon the Nembutsu and Vow of the Amida Buddha. He had seen through and thoroughly given up trust and reliance and all pride on any belief of his own personal power, his own ego-self. When the 'self' is seen this way, regardless of what dharma practice one may follow, this is ultimately the way one achieves liberation from this world of birth-and-death. Why? Because it is the 'self' that creates a false illusion of duality and that is the first step in the creation of Ignorance - the root of all Dukkha.

The path of Jodo Shinshu nembutsu dissolves the rigid discriminatory nature created by the ego-self, not by meditation or even by philosophical deconstruction, but by realizing that the self we are so attached to is an empty illusion lacking true reality in the presence of the Amida Buddha, the Vow, and the Nembutsu. namoamidabutsu.
http://www.sacbc.org/index.php/teachings/minister-s-message/310-gutoku-shinran
http://www.sacbc.org/index.php/teachings/minister-s-message/310-gutoku-shinran
 
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ananda

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Shinran Shonin is famous for explaining the contradiction in relying solely on your own efforts, as Theravada Buddhists do, in a religion which claims to be about overcoming or abandoning your ego-self. Shin Buddhism is the largest sect of Buddhism in Japan. Shinran taught salvation by grace through faith, three hundred years before Martin Luther, by trusting in the immeasurable compassion of Amida Buddha...
Interesting; thanks for your explanation.

I see the self as abandoned by the fulfillment of self, as Ven. Ananda similarly described how desire is abandoned by the fulfillment of desire, in the Brahmana Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya 51.15.

Do you find any difficulties reconciling the earliest suttas (Pali Nikayas) with subsequent Pure Land sutras?
 
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Yoder777

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Interesting; thanks for your explanation.

I see the self as abandoned by the fulfillment of self, as Ven. Ananda similarly described how desire is abandoned by the fulfillment of desire, in the Brahmana Sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya 51.15.

Do you find any difficulties reconciling the earliest suttas (Pali Nikayas) with subsequent Pure Land sutras?

According to traditional Mahayana teachings, the Mahayana sutras were taught later in the teaching career of Buddha than the Pali sutras, and therefore represent a more mature or complete form of his teaching. Shinran based his teachings on the three Pure Land sutras.
 
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ananda

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According to traditional Mahayana teachings, the Mahayana sutras were taught later in the teaching career of Buddha than the Pali sutras, and therefore represent a more mature or complete form of his teaching. Shinran based his teachings on the three Pure Land sutras.
Thanks for sharing! :)
 
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Chris B

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What if I told you that the universe has always existed in some form, so there's no need for a Creator,
Then I'd like to know the thinking or basis for the statement.

and that there's a natural law of cause and effect, so there's no need for a Judge who rewards and punishes?
That one appears to repeatedly fail against observations, unless one is allowed to invoke reincarnation and karma to make things come out right.

What if I then told you that, instead of a God as we understand the term, there is a compassionate essence to the universe that is within each and every human being, and It is our true nature waiting to be born?
Again, I'd want to know about the thinking behind the statement before I could begin to weigh it.
The proposal for a non-sentient indifferent universe would appear to have more going for it.

Buddhists pray to and take refuge in various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, but they are understood to be awakened human beings, and that, by taking refuge in them, we will also be led to our own awakening.

It's a common misconception that all Buddhists are atheists, which seems to be perpetuated by Western secularists who insist on projecting their understanding of Buddhism onto all Buddhists and by Theravada Buddhists who insist that their way is the only legitimate way to live the Dharma.
Buddhism is so varied it is difficult to keep it properly under one simple term.
As you cite one group of branches maintain that they alone have the pure understanding and truth.
That has a familiar ring echoing from elsewhere.
Gods and Demons feature as very real entities in some forms of Buddhism, along with temples and rituals which don't sit at all comfortably with some other forms...

If you called a Mahayana Buddhist who's taken a Bodhisattva Vow, believes the Dalai Lama to be the 14th incarnation of Avalokiteśvara, and who prays to Amitabha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Life, an atheist, would that really make sense in the way someone like Richard Dawkins would use the term?

No, but then Richard Dawkins acknowledges a range of atheism and theism (See "the Dawkins Scale")
Personally I'd consider prayer as principally directed to a deity, and as such is inclining towards the introduction of theistic elements.

There are elements of Buddhism that I have found useful to work with, but disagreeing profoundly with Buddhism on the most usual interpretations of suffering and of "cause and effect" in the Karmic sense, I can see no way that I could be a Buddhist, unless I happened to find some variant a long way from one or another mainstream form.

Chris.
 
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Yoder777

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Chris B, as an atheist, what do you believe about the origin of the universe? As for pray, let's look at the original meaning of the term:

1
: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

Roman Catholics pray to saints, but they are very clear that they are not worshiped as gods.
 
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Chris B

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Chris B, asan atheist, what do you believe about the origin of th# uiverse? .
I don't think anyone knows absolutely, which is why it is still being worked on. We have the Big Bang theory, which has done remarkably well, surviving a quarter century of scientific attack while it was the minority position in cosmology. That gives us the universe as we know it, but there's still some knowing to do, to put it mildly away from our familiar human-scale "common-sense" frame of reference. Before the Big Bang? "Nothing" remains a possibility, unless I'm well out-of-date, but hypotheses and observations ar being attempted, trying to establish if there was a "before", and if so something of the nature of such. Even if budded off, or one of myriads in a foam of universes, once in existence our universe is our *universe*. Nothing outside it, or influencing it.

As for pray, let's look at the original meaning of the term:

1
:entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray

Roman Catholics pray to saints, but they are very clear that they are not worshiped as gods.

The older senses in English, including "I inquire of you..." are separate, and largely obsolescent.
"...and what will you do then, pray?"
I agree on the Roman Catholics, (a theological issue in some quarters) but there would be no saints and no prayer to them (or very little) did they not exist in a framework of theism.

I can of course find believers who treat saints, icons and statues as real gods or god-like beings (and hardly just in Christianity) but the mainstream understanding in Western or Orthodox Christianity, or in Hinduism is that this is erroneous thinking.

As an atheist i have nothing and no-one to pray to. Especially not Richard Dawkins.

Chris
 
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Chris B

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this is a good article on what buddhists believe and why:
http://www.tricycle.com/blog/10-misconceptions-about-buddhism

That's even more diverse than I'd encountered, though I was aware of at least some of the items mentioned. The comments following the article are even more revealing. The term "Buddhism" is an umbrella term not adequately coping with incredibly varied sets of beliefs and practices (see also Hinduism, where also "all paths lead" and "only this way" proponents can be found)
 
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