Did Adam sin?

[smaneck]

Early Talmudic commentary suggests that the Serpent was originally interpreted as a literal snake, not a metaphysical force of evil. Judaism knows of the conflation of the Serpent and Satan, but has discarded the most obviously dualist concepts proto-Jewish folklore "borrowed" from the Zoroastrians.

In Zoroastrianism Ahriman (the Evil One) is said to fall from heaven to earth as a serpent once he learns of God's ultimate victory. In Mesopotamian religion, though, the she-serpent represents the primordial chaos which is destroyed with the High God slays the serpent and thereby brings creation (order) into being. We find this in the Babylonian myths but also in the Rig Veda.

 

[Niblo]

Ramadan Kareem my friend!

That's very kind. Thank you. May God bless you and your family, and keep you close to Himself.

 

[GillDouglas]

If you hold that all people are basically corrupt by birth, how does this NOT turn Christianity into a misanthropic world view?

Yeah, sure, God saves *some* of us worthless refuse (by no merit of our own), but that doesn't really change the horrifyingly negative image of humanity at its heart.

This view is meant to justify the need for Christ. If we are capable of not being corrupted and without sin from birth, why the need for a Savior? In that case we could save ourselves on our own merit.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you. And yes, she is worth it. : )

Sounds like she's got a great Mom.....or 'Mam' as we say in the Valleys!

 

[smaneck]

I notice you're Presbyterian, and I tend toward Arminianism, so we're probably venturing into territory where we'll disagree.
.

I was raised Presbyterian but it never occurred to me to take John Calvin seriously. And if I'd known about John Knox at the time (and his Monstrous Regiment of Women) I would have been rather upset.

 

[Catherineanne]

If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into societies that influence all people to sin? If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect there to be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned?

People who are severely learning disabled remain in a state of grace their whole lives. They are Holy Innocents before God, because they do not have the capacity to know what sin is. They may do things which look like sin to us, but they are not morally culpable for what they do. They are fully human, and deserving of respect as humans, but they cannot sin.

The concept of Original Sin teaches us that anyone (other than Christ) who has the capacity to understand what sin is, will eventually actually fall into sin. We can't help it if we are human and capable of knowing good from evil.

 

[smaneck]

That rumor is highly controversial and far from certain.

Which rumor? That Thomas wrote the Gospel of Thomas or your own suggestion that the other gospels might have been written by disciples.

I doubt if Thomas wrote the Gospel bearing his name but then I have the same doubts about Matthew and John. All three are fairly old gospels, however.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sounds like she's got a great Mom.....or 'Mam' as we say in the Valleys!

Thank you. I do what I can, with God's Grace.

She has not had the easiest life (her dad was an alcoholic; he left when she was 4 and died when she was 18), but that seems to have made her more resilient.

 

[toLiJC]

im asking this question because there are many who believe that Adam is a dirty dog. Here is my reasoning to why they are not and were following the plan of God. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden of Eden. They were innocent of knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them and Eve partook of the fruit and gave it to Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods law to not eat the fruit. God had told them not to eat of the fruit or they would die. Since there had not yet had death enter into the garden did they understand what the consequences of their choice? Since they did not know good and evil, could Adam and Eve understood what the law was and the consequences? They did disobey and as a result death came into the world. Sin also came into the world because of imperfection. I believe that to justice it does not matter if someone disobeys having full knowledge and understanding of the law broken or if someone is innocent of the law. It is still disobedience and there are consequences that must come as a result. The punishment is the same. Logic dictates that this was Gods plan all along because why would he allow satan to tempt them? Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to be tempted. I believe that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit so mortality would come to this earth as well so we could know good from evil. To experience the opposites of life so we could continue to progress. So to me Adam and Eve did not sin. They did transgress Gods law which had the same punishment.

the spiritual iniquity/lawlessness, albeit the most invisible, is the original sin, the very sin, and even the only, because it is the cause (and source) of all other iniquities and evils

initially it was done in the form of occultism/esoterism

Blessings

 

[smaneck]

initially it was done in the form of occultism/esoterism

Blessings

Where did you get this from?

 

[Theway]

Actually, we are born with a corrupt heart.

Utter nonsense....

 

[TheBarrd]

I have always thought that Eve got a bad rap on that. I mean, she'd never been faced with a lie before...how could she know that the father of lies was standing before her? We who are surrounded with lies every day of our lives very often do not recognize them as lies...how can we judge this poor woman who listened to the first lie that was ever told?

 

[Theway]

Romans 5 says Adam sinned.

No it doesn't....

At least for Mormons it doesn't
For the average modern Christian, it is not clear from these verses.
For original sin believers, these verses create a contradiction in their theology.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have always thought that Eve got a bad rap on that. I mean, she'd never been faced with a lie before...how could she know that the father of lies was standing before her? We who are surrounded with lies every day of our lives very often do not recognize them as lies...how can we judge this poor woman who listened to the first lie that was ever told?

That is a good point. God warned Adam against eating the fruit, but did not warn him against satan's lies.

 

[Catherineanne]

the spiritual iniquity/lawlessness, albeit the most invisible, is the original sin, the very sin, and even the only, because it is the cause (and source) of all other iniquities and evils

initially it was done in the form of occultism/esoterism

Blessings

That is a non-standard explanation of original sin.

Aka twaddle.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

This view is meant to justify the need for Christ. If we are capable of not being corrupted and without sin from birth, why the need for a Savior? In that case we could save ourselves on our own merit.

But that sounds like the sort of reasoning that also gave us a PERPETUALLY virginal Mary who was immaculately conceived.
Isn't it enough to believe that God conquered death in order to pardon us all and put an end to scapegoating and the terrible logic of sacrifice once and for all?

 

[Theway]

I have always thought that Eve got a bad rap on that. I mean, she'd never been faced with a lie before...how could she know that the father of lies was standing before her? We who are surrounded with lies every day of our lives very often do not recognize them as lies...how can we judge this poor woman who listened to the first lie that was ever told?

That's just it....
For Adam and Eve at that time in the Garden, following God would have been no different than following Satan in their minds. In fact, Satan wasn't exactly lying to Eve... Nor did Eve lie to Adam.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

initially it was done in the form of occultism/esoterism

Somebody needs a dictionary...

 

[Niblo]

Thank you. I do what I can, with God's Grace.

She has not had the easiest life (her dad was an alcoholic; he left when she was 4 and died when she was 18), but that seems to have made her more resilient.

I have a step sister whose dad was also an alcoholic. He died when she was about six. My dad married her mum some years after my mum died (she had cancer).

On a lighter note: My step mum was a district nurse in the Rhondda. One day she bumped into a young lass whose dad she used to visit. Their conversation went:

'Well hello, Mary. And how's your dad then?'

'Oh...he's died, Mrs Lewis. He died last week see.'

'Oh dear....there's a pity. What did he die of, then?'

'Well, nothing serious!'

 

[GillDouglas]

Utter nonsense....

So you're one of those 'follow your heart' types? That's dangerous territory. Is it your belief that your heart is a compass inside of you that will direct you to your own true north if you just have the courage to follow it? Believing that your heart is a true guide and that it will lead you to true happiness if you just have the courage to listen to it is dangerous.

The “follow your heart” creed certainly isn’t found in the Bible. The Bible actually thinks our hearts have a disease: “the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Jesus, the Great Physician, lists the grim symptoms of this disease: “out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander” (Matthew 15:19). I don't think I will be following my heart, because I know it is not always set on where it should be.