Did Adam sin?

[ChetSinger]

When we sin we do not corrupt our hearts, not at first. It takes a long time to reach the point where the heart may be regarded as corrupt. Normal, everyday sins separate us from God, but do not destroy our innate goodness.

I shouldn't have used the word 'corrupt'. It has different meanings to different people. I think I should've just said that we're not born guilty, but with an inherited propensity to eventually sin, and left it at that.

 

[Catherineanne]

I shouldn't have used the word 'corrupt'. It has different meanings to different people. I think I should've just said that we're not born guilty, but with an inherited propensity to eventually sin, and left it at that.

Yes, that is much closer to reality. : )

 

[GillDouglas]

No, you are mistaken. Sin has to be deliberate. Adam and Eve had to make a conscious choice to do wrong.

Your three year old is not (yet) a sinner; she remains in a state of grace and innocence. For you to suggest otherwise is rather disturbing, to be honest. What you call rebellion against authority is perfectly normal developmental behaviour for a 3 year old; the Lord himself would have behaved in the same way towards his parents. It is an important part of defining the self in contradistinction to those around her for a child to learn to assert her own wishes; this is a good and normal part of childhood.

We all need the Lord. Those who are innocent need a relationship with God, the same as anyone else. They do not yet need salvation from sin, but the chances are that one day they will.

If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into societies that influence all people to sin? If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect there to be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned?

 

[ChetSinger]

Free will is only possible when you have the ultimate determination of a choice. You have free will if the ultimate cause of your choice is your own self determination. Many things can influence a choice, but only one is ultimate or final. If you are the ultimate cause then sure, you have free will in choice.

So with that in mind I pose a question. Your decision to accept Christ, was your choice based on you or the grace of God? When you made a choice, what was the decisive influence? Your own power or God's grace?

I notice you're Presbyterian, and I tend toward Arminianism, so we're probably venturing into territory where we'll disagree.

To answer your question, I believe no one can come to God without him first being involved. The first involvement was the atonement, of course, but I believe these words from Jesus remain true: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

 

[ChetSinger]

I see no reason to make parenthood a matter of obedience and disobedience. My daughter (now 22) has never in her whole life disobeyed me, because I have never in her life laid down the law in this way. The only rule I set is that she should treat me the way she wants to be treated. When she was old enough to understand I told her that if she were to lie to me, or to disrespect me, I would do the same to her. I said she could use what language she liked outside the house, but to keep it civil in the house unless she wanted to learn a few new words from me. Funnily enough, she has never rebelled. I have tried to accept that she is her own person, with the right to make her own choices. Wherever she could safely make those choices for herself, I let her make them. Where it was not safe, I made them. And where we could decide together, we did.

She has never sinned against me because I have never set her up to fail in that way. I don't really see the point. Life is going to be hard enough on her, without beginning that harshness at home. I see myself as her first and greatest ally in life, not her controller or dictator.

That's wonderful. But it hasn't been my experience. For example, each of my children has lied to me and been punished for it. They've all grown up and made me proud, but there have been numerous spankings, timeouts, and favor-withholdings along the way.

 

[Niblo]

To me it seems that you are combining or comparing sin with doing right or wrong. Sin is simply a matter of rebelling against God, and we do that from the moment we're born. Right and wrong is a matter of opinion, and perspective. You can do 'right' in your sight and maybe in some other's sight but it still be an act of rebellion against God. My three year old is very much self-serving and rebellious against all authority including God's. Her choices of right and wrong matter not.

So is it your understanding that those who are 'holy innocent' have no need for Christ? If they are unaware of their ability to sin, why would they need a Savior?

You have a rebellious three year old? How very odd

 

[GillDouglas]

I notice you're Presbyterian, and I tend toward Arminianism, so we're probably venturing into territory where we'll disagree.

To answer your question, I believe no one can come to God without him first being involved. The first involvement was the atonement, of course, but I believe these words from Jesus remain true: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

Very good sir, I see that we will not agree on much but on that at least we can. Only by God's grace do we even come to know Him and then accept the need for His son, Jesus.

 

[GillDouglas]

You have a rebellious three year old? How very odd

Haha. Yes, very much so. She is a child after her own heart at the moment. My wife and I pray that God would soften that heart of hers someday, and until then give us the ability to show her grace as He has for us.

 

[ChetSinger]

Very good sir, I see that we will not agree on much but on that at least we can. Only by God's grace do we even come to know Him and then accept the need for His son, Jesus.

Amen!

 

[Niblo]

Haha. Yes, very much so. She is a child after her own heart at the moment. My wife and I pray that God would soften that heart of hers someday, and until then give us the ability to show her grace as He has for us.

Her heart isn't hard......it's just toddler. Some of the finest people I've known were Christian.....better folk than yours truly for sure. But they were all toddlers once!

 

[Catherineanne]

The story of Adam and Eve is the story of each one of us; we began in a state of innocency, we learned to distinguish good from evil, we chose to do wrong and we fell from grace. Chances are we then tried to blame someone else for what we had done rather than taking responsibility ourselves.

Adam is Everyman.

 

[Catherineanne]

Her heart isn't hard......it's just toddler. Some of the finest people I've known were Christian.....better folk than yours truly for sure. But they were all toddlers once!

Yes, perfectly normal. : )

 

[Niblo]

Yes, perfectly normal. : )

Tell me about it. I've had three of them......and six grandkids! I have the white hair to prove it

 

[Catherineanne]

Tell me about it. I've had three of them......and six grandkids! I have the white hair to prove it

I only have one daughter, and I had no white hair at all before she was born, as I often remind her. : D

Ramadan Mubarak, to you and yours.

 

[smaneck]

If we are born innocent and good, why aren’t there at least some people who have continued in this state and remained sinless? The fact that everybody sins needs some explanation. The best explanation is that we are sinners by nature. Someone might argue that the reason all people sin is because society is sinful, and thus society renders it impossible for anybody to keep themselves entirely pure. But that only pushes the question back one step. How did society get sinful in the first place? If people are born morally good, then how did it come about that they congregated into societies that influence all people to sin? If humanity is not born in sin, wouldn’t we expect there to be some people who have “beaten the odds” and never sinned?

I think there are some, but they are admittedly very rare. If a person makes a million choices in life, what are the odds all of them will be right? I don't think we have to posit a notion of 'sinners by nature' to explain this. Isn't it sufficient to acknowledge that mistakes are going to be made and hopefully we learn from them?

 

[Niblo]

I only have one daughter, and I had no white hair at all before she was born, as I often remind her. : D

Ramadan Mubarak, to you and yours.

A pound will get me a penny she was (and is) worth it.

Thank you for your greeting. God bless you both.

Have a great week.

 

[single eye]

Sure, but with possible exception of the Gospel of Thomas, they weren't written by disciples.

That rumor is highly controversial and far from certain.

 

[GillDouglas]

A pound will get me a penny she was (and is) worth it.

Thank you for your greeting. God bless you both.

Have a great week.

Ramadan Kareem my friend!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If you hold that all people are basically corrupt by birth, how does this NOT turn Christianity into a misanthropic world view?

Yeah, sure, God saves *some* of us worthless refuse (by no merit of our own), but that doesn't really change the horrifyingly negative image of humanity at its heart.

 

[Catherineanne]

A pound will get me a penny she was (and is) worth it.

Thank you for your greeting. God bless you both.

Have a great week.

Thank you. And yes, she is worth it. : )