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Best Argument For or Against God's Existence

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Davian

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sigh...I'm sure I answered this before in this thread.


People who make a rational analysis of the KCA.
I have never met such an individual. A rational analysis should not require assumptions and special pleading.
He's not made of anything in the material universe. It is incoherent that something could create itself.
What is it made of?
God is not confined to the spatial universe.
Where is it?
there is a state of affairs in which God exists without the space-time universe.
Speculation.
no it isn't. It is not in the conclusion that God is uncaused. Rathe, it is one of the traits that we extrapolate if the argument is sound (meaning that the conclusion follows from the premises and that the premises are true (including p1, that everything that begins to exist has a cause. Since God exist in a state of affairs timelessly, then he was uncaused).
Or, it is an assumption made so the KCA does not fall apart before you get through it.
The energy of the big bang was quite powerful.
Net numbers, please.
The problem is that we have a cause which existed in a timeless state, but the effect existed temporally. It's difficult to see how if the conditions necessary to bring the effect into being coexisted in the same state of affairs as the cause itself, then why didn't the effect also exist timelessly. There are a few different types of causation and one of them is agent causation, in which a free agent brings an effect about. For example, a man existing timelessly decides to stand up. The man (cause) sitting existed timelessly, but he began to exist temporally when he stood up (the effect).
The problem is, this is all speculation.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I may not have answered your response personally, but I'm sure I addressed similar objections elsewhere in this thread.
And I'm sure I've responded to those comments.

But I tell you what, you answer my problem of evil argument versus lack of belief OP and then maybe I'll answer your post.
If you are interested in my thoughts on this, then you can start here.
 
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Joshua260

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...but not actually true.
Hello???? The argument you made was that the Christian god was just as reasaonble to believe in as Melisandre! So my response is that your claim is totally unfounded in grouping hem together. We're going in circles here...and you are leading the way!
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Not interested.
That's your choice. Remember, you wanted to know my thoughts on the Problem of Evil.

You answer my OP first and then I'll get back into the KCA with you.
Considering the number of my comments in this thread directed at you that you haven't responded to, I don't think you're in a position to demand I respond to you in another thread.
 
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Joshua260

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Joshua, what do you mean when you say "We know that the cause of the universe was...uncaused..."?
The first premise is that everything that begins to exist has a cause.
If premise 2 is correct, that the space-time universe began to exist, then time also began to exist when the universe began to exist.
If time began to exist when the universe began to exist, then the cause existed separately and timelessly. ergo, the cause did not begin to exist (i.e. there would be no time in which the cause did not exist) and thus needs no cause.
 
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Joshua260

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That's your choice. Remember, you wanted to know my thoughts on the Problem of Evil.
No, I am not interested in your thoughts on the problem of evil. I'm interested in you answering my OP in the other thread which does not solicit your thoughts on the subject at all, but rather simply asks whether you believe that the argument as I present it is 1. unsound or 2. sound and you know or believe it. After you , I'll be glad to get back into the KCA with you again. I'm already all over this thread answering KCA objections.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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No, I am not interested in your thoughts on the problem of evil. I'm interested in you answering my OP in the other thread which does not solicit your thoughts on the subject at all, but rather simply asks whether you believe that the argument as I present it is 1. unsound or 2. sound and you know or believe it. After you , I'll be glad to get back into the KCA with you again. I'm already all over this thread answering KCA objections.
I already told you that I am not interested in your question from that thread. I also made clear that you are in no position to negotiate a response with me given that you haven't responded to my comments here. So it's "after you..."
 
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Joshua260

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I already told you that I am not interested in your question from that thread. I also made clear that you are in no position to negotiate a response with me given that you haven't responded to my comments here. So it's "after you..."
Oh, are we making a deal then? Are you agreeing to answer my OP with "1. unsound or 2. sound and believe or know" if I answer your post in this thread?
 
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nonbeliever314

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Oh, so you didn't really mean to imply that the Christian could be grouped with Melisadre. I agree, there's quite a difference.

I wouldn't say that at all. The conclusion of the KCA is more probably true than not. It doesn't have known with certainty to be a good argument for the existence of God. As I've said many times, I've never seen a good objection to it yet.

OK. Let me tear this to shreds for you. If you disagree with any of the following modify it and let me know. Here is WLC's version, copy and pasted from wikipedia.


  • The universe has a cause;
  • If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;
    Therefore:
  • An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

1) The universe has a cause;

The universe is here, and there is evidence of a possible "beginning". Whether or not it did have a beginning the universe is here, what we observe appears as if something caused it. Fair enough.

2) If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;

This part makes two huge assumptions: That this is the one and only universe, and that an "uncaused, personal Creator" exists. Firstly, this could be one of many universes (multiverse), of which there's possible experimental evidence that could emerge through analyzing the cosmic microwave background radiation (this experiment is very new and still in the works). If not the multiverse, there is also the possibility that what we see as the big bang was simply a transitional state, and other events occurred before the big bang and there might not have been a beginning to reality at all. Basically what I'm saying is, there are many, many other possibilities besides this universe being the ONLY one, and that it actually had a beginning. Personally I think a beginning to reality itself is far more complicated than just it being here all along. Secondly, the personal creator. Anything could be put in place of that, but god is put there to motivate the religious argument. Yes, it is fair to assume that, but it is also fair to assume that something else "created" the universe if it was even "created" in the first place. I can say an eternal mathematical generator created the universe, or there actually is no universe and what we experience is something like a "brain in a vat" and reality is something totally different. Again, there are many, many other possibilities for what created the universe, and that's only if we ASSUME there was some type of absolute beginning. Also "uncaused" is attempt to replace eternal. WLC doesn't like the concept of actual infinity, so he uses "uncaused" instead, he basically shot himself in the foot there. And without a personal creator the universe is "beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful"? Loads of big words here, he could have just said "nothing". Enormously powerful?, power is the rate of change in work, which requires matter/energy, time and space, but it is stated that the universe is immaterial, spaceless, and timeless. That statement makes absolutely no sense.

3) Therefore: An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

Premise 1 is already up in the air, if premise 1 were true, and we could move on to premise 2... Premise 2 is LOADED with assumptions, inconsistencies, and biased motivations. Therefore premise 3 loses ANY validity whatsoever.

Q.E.D.

Here is what I would say:
1) Reality may or may not have had a cause;
2) If reality may or may not have had a cause, then reality is not yet fully understood to make a claim to either.
3) Therefore: We cannot conclude with absolute certainty what reality is or is not using our current understanding of it.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Oh, are we making a deal then? Are you agreeing to answer my OP with "1. unsound or 2. sound and believe or know" if I answer your post in this thread?
I'm not sure where you got the idea that responding to posts was a bargaining chip. In case you haven't noticed, I don't particularly care whether you respond or not. I'm not anguished by your lack of response, as it doesn't reflect poorly on me in any way. You, on the other hand, seem desperate for me to validate your question with a response. So desperate in fact that, in return for my opinion, you promise to respond to comments that you should have responded to weeks ago.
 
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Davian

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Hello???? The argument you made was that the Christian god was just as reasaonble to believe in as Melisandre!
Indeed. I do not see either as rising over the threshold of "actually true".
So my response is that your claim is totally unfounded in grouping hem together.
No, your response was that one was "more true" that the other. Crop circles, as patterns left in fields of wheat etc as being made by extraterrestrial aliens are "more true" than that of being made by fairies (we know biological life and space travel are possible for the former, where all we have are some faked photographs for the latter) but this does not establish the existence of those hypothetical aliens.
We're going in circles here...and you are leading the way!
The circles are of your own making.
 
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Joshua260

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No, your response was that one was "more true" that the other. Crop circles, as patterns left in fields of wheat etc as being made by extraterrestrial aliens are "more true" than that of being made by fairies (we know biological life and space travel are possible for the former, where all we have are some faked photographs for the latter) but this does not establish the existence of those hypothetical aliens.
Right, it is more probable that the Christian god is true than your god Melisandre. So it is not just as reasonable to believe in Melisandre as it is to believe in the Christian god. In fact the evidence supporting the truth of Christianity is so much more than the evidence supporting the existence of Melisandre that it is pretty much ridiculous to even make the comparison...and that was my point from the beginning.
 
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Davian

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Right, it is more probable that the Christian god is true than your god Melisandre. So it is not just as reasonable to believe in Melisandre as it is to believe in the Christian god. In fact the evidence supporting the truth of Christianity is so much more than the evidence supporting the existence of Melisandre that it is pretty much ridiculous to even make the comparison...and that was my point from the beginning.
"...more probable..."

I didn't say that. Subjectively, one may be less ludicrous that the other, but probability implies numbers, a numerical value, and both gods currently on the table are still numerically at zero.
 
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Joshua260

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I'm not sure where you got the idea that responding to posts was a bargaining chip.
Post #509 where you said:
"you are in no position to negotiate a response with me given that you haven't responded to my comments here. So it's "after you..."

In case you haven't noticed, I don't particularly care whether you respond or not. I'm not anguished by your lack of response, as it doesn't reflect poorly on me in any way. You, on the other hand, seem desperate for me to validate your question with a response. So desperate in fact that, in return for my opinion, you promise to respond to comments that you should have responded to weeks ago.
No that's fine. If you still refuse to answer, that' okay. But I have bent over backwards trying to answer your objections in the original thread where I first asked about the problem of evil argument, but you would not listen there so when the thread closed you continued to ask your questions in private message. All throughout I kept telling you that you were not understanding the question correctly so I created a thread dedicated to the question I posed and worded it specifically to address your concerns. You still kept bugging me in pm and I kept advising you to look at the new thread I created just for you and you refused to do so. Instead you kept on making the same confused objection in pm. While doing so, you accused me of changing my question, which I did not, you accused me of pretending to be someone who I'm not, and then you also flatly accused me of lying. So we get in this thread and you say I haven't addressed all the objections here. Then I ask which ones and you point me to your post which does include material that I addressed in other's posts. Note that I did look at it, but like I said, I know I've answered similar objections from others in this thread. So I tell you that and you reply "I don't think you have answered them. You have dismissed them." That's simply not true, but I've accommodated you a lot and you have not responded in a profitable manner. I'm actually known to be quite patient and I'm willing to go and retread old ground again, but after all I've done to accommodate you, I would like to see some progress on your part, so I offered the deal after you gave me the idea. So, even though I spent a lot of time on this thread already answering similar objections, I would be willing to retread old ground again, but first you have to show me an act of good faith by answering my OP that I created almost solely for you. If you don't feel like it, then ok. But don't expect me to retread old ground just for you then because I feel that my time would be better used answering other member's posts.
 
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Joshua260

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"...more probable..."

I didn't say that. Subjectively, one may be less ludicrous that the other, but probability implies numbers, a numerical value, and both gods currently on the table are still numerically at zero.
Yes, and I believe that the existence of God is more probable than not, which means a greater than 50 percent chance of being true. If you want to compare the evidences, please start a new thread and I would be happy to participate, but going through the list here would be off-topic.
 
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Joshua260

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OK. Let me tear this to shreds for you. If you disagree with any of the following modify it and let me know. Here is WLC's version, copy and pasted from wikipedia.


  • The universe has a cause;
  • If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;
    Therefore:
  • An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.

I'm going to stop you right here because I've read several of Craig's books and I have never seen it presented in this fashion. This is what you get when you quote from wiki, which is notoriously biased against religion. Start again from a syllogism from Craig on Reasonablefaith.org and then I'll answer your "shredding".
 
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nonbeliever314

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I'm going to stop you right here because I've read several of Craig's books and I have never seen it presented in this fashion. This is what you get when you quote from wiki, which is notoriously biased against religion. Start again from a syllogism from Craig on Reasonablefaith.org and then I'll answer your "shredding".
Will do.
 
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Davian

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Yes, and I believe that the existence of God is more probable than not, which means a greater than 50 percent chance of being true.
I am not concerned about what you believe, but what you can demonstrate as an accurate description of reality.
If you want to compare the evidences, please start a new thread and I would be happy to participate, but going through the list here would be off-topic.
Indeed. The best argument for the existence of your god has no place in a thread titled "Best Argument For or Against God's Existence".

lol.
 
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