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Seal Clubbing

OldWiseGuy

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"He gave man meat to eat"? Meaning what? That it's allowed?

Genesis 9:2-4 King James Version (KJV)

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
 
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nebulaJP

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Genesis 9:2-4 King James Version (KJV)

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Sorry, your interpretation is wrong. http://www.all-creatures.org/discuss/genesis9.2-4-jv.html
 
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Hank

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You seem to be assuming that the moral crime in question here is destruction of the environment rather than the infliction of suffering on a sentient creature. Why is it not a moral crime to inflict suffering on a sentient creature for no good reason? Also, what if my method of getting clothing was killing humans for their skin and hair. Would you still hold that all forms of fulfilling my need for clothing were equal?
Not sure if countries like New Zealand, that actually made animals sentient beings, are elevating animals to the status of human beings or lowering human beings to the status of animals.
How can any one compare fur with human skin? And this is not a question, since I operate with two distinct codes, one for humans and one for animals.
 
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morse86

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Jesus killed more than 2000 pigs to save 1 human life.

God wanted so many animal sacrifices in the old testament.

In the book of revelation, it says all of the grass will be burned up....surely many animals will die. In fact, God says the entire earth will be destroyed. A new earth will be created for the saints with Jesus as the King. The current earth's "king" is satan.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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leftrightleftrightleft

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Your life/death thing is true but in climates or societies in which eating meat isn’t necessary for survival, why does it have to be animal death? Why can’t it just be plant death?

These animals are capable of expressing love. They can form deep and obvious trust and affection for a human being. Why be so indifferent to their suffering?

So it seems to be more about “pleasure because we can” than necessity to me.
(Emphasis mine)

I just for some reason don't see the problem with killing an animal for food if that is the whole express purpose of the animal being alive.

My wife lived on a farm growing up. They had cows and pets. One of their cows was named Annie. Annie was a very loving cow which would come when you called it and even learned simple commands. And one day Annie was on the dinner table. It was no big deal. The cow lived a great life. It didn't suffer. It just died. Death =/= suffering.
 
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nebulaJP

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(Emphasis mine)

I just for some reason don't see the problem with killing an animal for food if that is the whole express purpose of the animal being alive.

My wife lived on a farm growing up. They had cows and pets. One of their cows was named Annie. Annie was a very loving cow which would come when you called it and even learned simple commands. And one day Annie was on the dinner table. It was no big deal. The cow lived a great life. It didn't suffer. It just died. Death =/= suffering.

It’s much better to never bring an animal into existence than to do so just to betray it one day. That is true regardless of whether it is a human, pet or any other animal.

What if you decide that the whole express purpose of a particular human is to be killed at the age of three (long before they could ever be locked up for murder). Would it be moral, since that was the whole express purpose of that toddler’s life, according to the powers that be?
 
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Hank

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It’s much better to never bring an animal into existence than to do so just to betray it one day. That is true regardless of whether it is a human, pet or any other animal.

What if you decide that the whole express purpose of a particular human is to be killed at the age of three (long before they could ever be locked up for murder). Would it be moral, since that was the whole express purpose of that toddler’s life, according to the powers that be?

Which powers to be would actually condone murdering toddlers? :rolleyes:
 
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nebulaJP

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Genesis 9 grants mankind-in-general permission to eat just about anything. Leviticus 11 delineates the critters that Israel was allowed to eat.

Within context, it is after a flood. No plant foods are available. The animals cannot be eaten, because they have to reproduce. The verses you quoted are specifically about eating reptile eggs in time of need.

Also, just because you are allowed to do something, does that mean you should do it? You are allowed by law to say the most hurtful things you can think of to everyone you meet, but that doesn't mean that you should. If humans are allowed to eat meat, good. The people living traditional subsistence lifestyles don't have to worry. But does that mean it is moral for EVERYONE to use animal products for ANY use?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Within context, it is after a flood. No plant foods are available. The animals cannot be eaten, because they have to reproduce. The verses you quoted are specifically about eating reptile eggs in time of need.

Also, just because you are allowed to do something, does that mean you should do it? You are allowed by law to say the most hurtful things you can think of to everyone you meet, but that doesn't mean that you should. If humans are allowed to eat meat, good. The people living traditional subsistence lifestyles don't have to worry. But does that mean it is moral for EVERYONE to use animal products for ANY use?

Noah had seven pairs of "clean" animals plus provender for them, as well as other food. He and his family survived quite well until things got growing again.
 
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Conscious Z

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Irrelevant. We're not talking about killing humans. We're talking about killing seals. They are not at all the same thing. Your comparison falls apart. Clubbing seals isn't murder. Nor is it cruel. Shooting one in the head and not killing it then leaving it to suffer until it finally dies IS cruel. And, immediate death from gunshot does NOT happen a third of the time. Clubbing dispatches them immediately to prevent cruelty. MOST seals are NOT clubbed.

Both seals and humans are conscious, sentient creatures capable of experiencing pain. That is the relevant consideration. While there is a different between seals and humans, it is a matter of degree. Thus, if it is wrong to club a human, it is at least somewhat wrong to club a seal.

There is nothing magical about being human. Human life is valuable only insofar as it exhibits features like consciousness. Humans are not the only conscious animals, however, therefore we are not the only species whose lives have value.
 
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Eyes wide Open

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To take another life that isn't dependant on your survival needs is amoral. Its a basic instinctual component to emergent life to protect itself, to fight or move away etc. Life that can't move away is on a Lower evolutionary level, it hasn't evolved enough to develop sensory drives and the resultant means to protect them, via fighting or the moving away methods. If an animal moves away from you its because it understands pain (aware) and the need not to experience it, thus a wild animal will almost never approach you, unless it's used to being fed, in which case it understands that and may approach. A fully sentient creature that has a brain and central nervous system almost mirrors our own experience. They can't perform high cognitive functioning like we can (complex thought) but that's about it. So if we value our experience in any way, then we'd value the experience of another creature living a similar life and want to protect that life and the 'experience' of that life, not just make it comfortable before we end that experience. If you only value your own experience then you are portraying a selfish attitude, one that is prepared to see something die in order to meet that selfish attitude. The issue is that most people really don't care and will will introduce 'their justification'. Vegans are living proof of the 'non need'.
 
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StephanieSomer

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StephanieSomer

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Within context, it is after a flood. No plant foods are available. The animals cannot be eaten, because they have to reproduce. The verses you quoted are specifically about eating reptile eggs in time of need.

Also, just because you are allowed to do something, does that mean you should do it? You are allowed by law to say the most hurtful things you can think of to everyone you meet, but that doesn't mean that you should. If humans are allowed to eat meat, good. The people living traditional subsistence lifestyles don't have to worry. But does that mean it is moral for EVERYONE to use animal products for ANY use?

Read the account. There WAS plants growing. Noah didn't leave the ark until that was a certainty.
 
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StephanieSomer

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Within context, it is after a flood. No plant foods are available. The animals cannot be eaten, because they have to reproduce. The verses you quoted are specifically about eating reptile eggs in time of need.

Also, just because you are allowed to do something, does that mean you should do it? You are allowed by law to say the most hurtful things you can think of to everyone you meet, but that doesn't mean that you should. If humans are allowed to eat meat, good. The people living traditional subsistence lifestyles don't have to worry. But does that mean it is moral for EVERYONE to use animal products for ANY use?


Are you aware that about half of the original twelve apostles were fishermen? They made their living catching fish to sell as food. Christ even helped them with their catches several times. Fish IS meat, isn't it? Nothing in any of your arguments is Scriptural. If your conscience will not allow you to partake of meat, then be a vegan. I really don't care. I doubt anyone else would care either. But, for you to condemn people for eating meat is just wrong.
 
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StephanieSomer

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Both seals and humans are conscious, sentient creatures capable of experiencing pain. That is the relevant consideration. While there is a different between seals and humans, it is a matter of degree. Thus, if it is wrong to club a human, it is at least somewhat wrong to club a seal.

There is nothing magical about being human. Human life is valuable only insofar as it exhibits features like consciousness. Humans are not the only conscious animals, however, therefore we are not the only species whose lives have value.

To equate humans, made in the image of God, with animals, is inherently sacrilegious, since it is by extension equating God with animals..
 
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Eyes wide Open

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Are you aware that about half of the original twelve apostles were fishermen? They made their living catching fish to sell as food. Christ even helped them with their catches several times. Fish IS meat, isn't it? Nothing in any of your arguments is Scriptural. If your conscience will not allow you to partake of meat, then be a vegan. I really don't care. I doubt anyone else would care either. But, for you to condemn people for eating meat is just wrong.

The fishermen identified a need then. As did Noah after the flood, as the plants would have been non edible ones I would imagine and the soil unsuitable for crops.
It is not wrong to identify current western standards and the lack of compassion, religious or not.
A poem for you.

Vegetarian

I scan the grocery isles, vibrant colours abound, shapes crafted from above, a synergy between sun and earth a creative dream.

A synergy that allows blossom to fruit, for seeds to germinate and sprout. Cookbook pages will morph me into a composer of this symphony, sweet music I will make.

A move down the butcher’s isle polystyrene and cling wrap meet my gaze. Crafting of butchers knife, fall of blade the creative cut. The colours have become like child’s plasticine all molded into reddish brown.

The chill sends a shiver down my spine, the whiff of bleach tickles my nostrils, all that is absent is the morgue toe tag.

Justification escapes me, life saving need has been replaced by life loving want. We hunt and gather no more, evolution has put paid to this bygone endeavour
the spear and snare replaced by trolley and till.

Karma plants its seeds just below the surface never letting us escape from reaping what we sew.
 
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Eyes wide Open

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To equate humans, made in the image of God, with animals, is inherently sacrilegious, since it is by extension equating God with animals..

Not if the likeness is our ability to create, not actual image. Then we can ask...what is it we are creating, and is it loving caring and compassionate?
 
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