How many dozens of Christians did creationism drive away this past hour?

[HereIStand]

I can't recall ever meeting a person who rejected Christianity because of Creationism. It's a belief I hold, but only a minority of Christianity does. So, if a person claims that he can't believe because of Creationism, we have to dig to deeper, because that's really not the reason.

 

[AV1611VET]

I can't recall ever meeting a person who rejected Christianity because of Creationism. It's a belief I hold, but only a minority of Christianity does. So, if a person claims that he can't believe because of Creationism, we have to dig to deeper, because that's really not the reason.

Agree.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I'll restate an earlier comment I made you may have missed. "If one has to misrepresent science to support one's religious beliefs, then what does that say about those beliefs?"

This post reminded me an article shared on Reddit back in March that was written by a biology professor at the University of Kentucky where evolution is still more contentious, and in particular the last paragraph about a student who sat through his class as a creationist.

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...sity_of_kentucky_there_are_some_students.html

I’m occasionally told my life would be easier if I backed off from my relentless efforts to advance evolution education. Maybe so. But to shy away from emphasizing evolutionary biology is to fail as a biology teacher. I continue to teach biology as I do, because biology makes sense only in the light of evolution.

And it’s a message that sometimes gets through. There’s one student I can remember in particular who took my freshman seminar on evolutionary medicine. He was an ardent evangelical Christian who believed in the literal truth of biblical creation. The seminar was very hard on him, and he struggled with the information, questioning and doubting everything we read. Several years later, our paths crossed, and we stopped for what turned out to be a long, easy chat. Now a doctor, he explained to me that, at the time, he was so upset with my seminar that he attended a number of creationists’ public lectures for evidence I was wrong. He said he found himself embarrassed by how badly these individuals perverted Christian teachings, as well as known facts, to make their argument. He wanted me to know that he came to understand he could be a Christian and accept evolution. Then he did something that resonates with any teacher: He thanked me for opening his eyes, turning his world upside down, and blurring the line between black and white.

 

[Papias]

Except the decrease is 2.9% and the number that did not respond is 2.9%. Also some became Muslim, Hindu, etc. - not left belief in God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth#America

The source you gave shows 2.9 for the decrease in total respondents of any kind (not just Christians). That same source lists the decrease in Christians as 10.2%, in line with the data I cited. It looks like you might want to look at that table again.

Only .9% became atheists or non-believers in America - so the facts really do not fit the claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

"A 2012 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life reports that just 2.4% of the whole US population are atheists even though the number of religiously unaffiliated has grown from 15% to just under 20% from 2007 to 2012."

I never claimed Atheists went up by more than that. Do you understand that those leaving Christianity generally say they are "nothing in particular" or are "unsure about what to believe" - they don't automatically claim to be Atheists, of course. So again, you point is consistent with the Pew data.

It's not about being able to "say anything with statistics". The decrease is clear, real, and consistent.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Papias]

Sorry, I did not realize we get different data from the same article.
Here is my math:
Average - 5 millions lost between 2007 to 2014
5 000 000 / 7 years / 365 days / 24 hours = 81.5 per hour

The data shows 25 million left, not just 5. Not sure where you are getting "5 million".

Welcome back!

Papias

P. S. AV, welcome back too! I have to say that you probably gave the simplest correct answer. : )

 

[Papias]

I sure hope my story is an outlier, but if one church is ready to chase a pastor out over creation, how alienated must non-Christians/skeptics feel when creationism is preached with pseudo/no science? Small wonder so many people cite creationism as a reason they left the church.

Welcome back!

Ouch, what a story.

-Papias

 

[Hank]

The data shows 25 million left, not just 5. Not sure where you are getting "5 million".

Welcome back!

Papias

P. S. AV, welcome back too! I have to say that you probably gave the simplest correct answer. : )

The data does not.
A direct quote from the article:
In 2007, there were 227 million adults in the United States, and a little more than 78% of them – or roughly 178 million – identified as Christians. Between 2007 and 2014, the overall size of the U.S. adult population grew by about 18 million people, to nearly 245 million.7 But the share of adults who identify as Christians fell to just under 71%, or approximately 173 million Americans, a net decline of about 5 million.

 

[Papias]

The data does not.
A direct quote from the article:
In 2007, there were 227 million adults in the United States, and a little more than 78% of them – or roughly 178 million – identified as Christians. Between 2007 and 2014, the overall size of the U.S. adult population grew by about 18 million people, to nearly 245 million.7 But the share of adults who identify as Christians fell to just under 71%, or approximately 173 million Americans, a net decline of about 5 million.

Oh, I see how you got 5 million.

However, that 5 million is much less than the number who have left, due to the increase in the population over the same time. Notice that the population increased over that time. So, if the drop was smaller than it was (it as about 8%), then you could well have had many people leave, but to have the whole population increase by more, giving a positive number by your method of subtracting the initial from the final, missing the loss.

For example, this is exactly what happened with evangelical Christians, who dropped by about 1%, but since the population grew by over 1%, the 2014 number of evangelicals is more than the 2007 number of evangelicals.

The 25 million was the % drop, times the 2014 population. Or, 0.08 X 320 Million.

As a tweak, that 320 was total population, while the Pew data only looked at adults, so with that, it might make sense to talk about ~20 million (just the adults).

Make sense?

Papias

 

[HereIStand]

Because you haven't met one, negates the studies performed, in which thousands of people are asked this very question?

Our beliefs aren't based on how well they're accepted according to surveys. Christianity isn't about following the will of the majority. It's a counter-cultural faith.

 

[Willtor]

Our beliefs aren't based on how well they're accepted according to surveys. Christianity isn't about following the will of the majority. It's a counter-cultural faith.

Interesting. I haven't heard of this doctrine that addresses why people are leaving. If you are responding to the post you quoted, then you are saying there is some tenet of faith that says that people are not leaving because of creationism? Please talk more about this doctrine. Does it make a positive statement about why people are leaving? Or is it generally phrased as a negative: Creationism is not a major reason that people are leaving?

Do you see this as an essential doctrine, or might there be good Christians who believe the results of this survey?

 

[bhsmte]

Our beliefs aren't based on how well they're accepted according to surveys. Christianity isn't about following the will of the majority. It's a counter-cultural faith.

I agree.

And when people speak for themselves and claim, they have left Christianity because of creationism, only they can speak on their own behalf.

 

[Smidlee]

I love how evolutionist always act as if they are "Defenders of Science." "to understand evolution you must understand science..." but to understand science you need to understand human nature. It's the same tactic the political churches did centuries ago as they acted as if they were the "Defenders of the Truth" and anyone who disagree with the political church views were the "enemies of the truth." ... heretics.

Just as man used to believe the sun revolves around him he still believe the universe revolves around his understanding. Some have even claimed if their version of origins is wrong (they call science.) then God has deceived them.

The article above stated "nothing makes sense except in the light of evolution" is the same as an ape thinking "nothing makes sense except in the light of bananas."

You have revelation or you have speculation when it's comes to origins.

 

[Willtor]

Biology doesn't make sense except in the light of evolution.

I don't think anybody has said that nothing makes sense in the light of evolution.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, now, I gotta wonder why you got on this string. One would think it would have been to enlighten people about the great evolutionary truth out there. Yet when I asked for information - quoting exactly zero dogma in my Qs - you didn't answer one of them. Now there was a chance for you to help a l'il fundie see the evolutionary light. No evo. fans ever really answer those Qs because there are none that fit evolutionary theory. Some just make excuses, or toss out red herrings, though and are not personally attacking.

There is a thread discussing ERV's if you are interested in discussing the evidence that backs the theory of evolution:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/lines-of-evidence-part-1-ervs.7867271/

 

[Oncedeceived]

Do you not have google?

Are you really incapable of looking up "empirical evidence"?

The evasion is on your part, trying to bog the conversation down in definitions and distractions instead of facing up to the fact that you have no empirical evidence.

Evasion much, indeed.

Like I said, you have no intention of an adult conversation.

Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists and is a central process as part of the scientific method.
http://www.livescience.com/21456-empirical-evidence-a-definition.html

Agreed?

 

[Oncedeceived]

This would exclude your supposed shared God experiences. Agreed?

Of course, I never claimed that Christian experiences are empirical evidence.

 

[HereIStand]

Interesting. I haven't heard of this doctrine that addresses why people are leaving. If you are responding to the post you quoted, then you are saying there is some tenet of faith that says that people are not leaving because of creationism? Please talk more about this doctrine. Does it make a positive statement about why people are leaving? Or is it generally phrased as a negative: Creationism is not a major reason that people are leaving?

Do you see this as an essential doctrine, or might there be good Christians who believe the results of this survey?

Yes, there might be good Christians who believe the results of the survey. The implication of the survey though is that Christian beliefs should be made more palatable. Or what matters in Christian belief is how people perceive it or react to it, not what's true.

 

[Willtor]

As a whole, Pew doesn't make implications. It's an interesting question: For the people who leave the Church, why do they leave?

Do what you will with the answer. Pew can provide you with good statistics and they have a reputation for intellectual honesty and rigor.

Personally, I agree with Loudmouth. It's hard to kick against the goads, as Jesus observed. But AFAIK, Pew doesn't talk about what should be done.

 

[Smidlee]

Biology doesn't make sense except in the light of evolution.

I don't think anybody has said that nothing makes sense in the light of evolution.

It would be even more accurate if the evolutionist would say " Nothing in biology make sense except in the light of evolution to me."
They want to speak for everyone.

 

[AV1611VET]

As a whole, Pew doesn't make implications. It's an interesting question: For the people who leave the Church, why do they leave?

Do what you will with the answer. Pew can provide you with good statistics and they have a reputation for intellectual honesty and rigor.

Personally, I agree with Loudmouth. It's hard to kick against the goads, as Jesus observed. But AFAIK, Pew doesn't talk about what should be done.

People leaving the faith is a sign of the end times.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Notice in that passage, that the Spirit is speaking expressly.