From post
#106
So the clouds will shine. Probably it will be clouds of His glory.
We will rather see Jesus coming in Glory through the clouds...
One image worth a thousand words:
Matthew 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Iamlamad said:
The point still remains, you are talking about His coming as shown in Rev. 19 and Matthew 24. What are you going to do with His coming FOR HIS SAINTS 7 years previous as shown in 1 Thes. 4? You can try to imagine all passages refer to one coming, but you will be wrong. When He comes FOR His saints and the dead in Christ rise, the "sudden destruction" this event will trigger will be as Paul said, the wrath of God and the beginning of the Day of His wrath - the very wrath, as Paul wrote - that we have no appointment with.
Correct me if I am wrong but there is a trumpet sounding in 1 Thes. 4.... there is no trump sounding "pre-tib" at the opening of the 6 th seal...
Iamlamad said:
You can set your own appointment if you wish: but why, when God Himself has declared that He will not set that appointment? You can lose your head to the beast if you wish, but WHY, when God wants to to ESCAPE what is coming?
Same old cursing.If really there is to be a removal of Christians before the tribulation no Christians will be left behind.Why your theory need a large group of Christians left behind ?
Iamlamad said:
For the real meaning of "heaven" in this verse, we must refer to the Mark version:
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
What would be the purpose of stating both heaven and earth if He was only talking about the earth? Of course clouds are in the air above the surface of the earth. Perhaps there are clouds above the surface of the heavenly planet as well. However, Paul wrote that the dead in Christ would rise to the clouds and then those caught up alive will meet them in the clouds and will meet Jesus in the air (where the clouds are). Of course the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ will be found in all parts of the earth, so "from the uttermost part of the earth" would fit Paul's gathering; but "to the uttermost part of heaven" does not fit.
Fit Matthew 24:31
...
From the four winds from one end of heaven (sky) to the other.
Iamlamad said:
However, if this is God fulfilling His promise to bring all the Jews back to Israel, from all over the earth and all over heaven, this would fit perfectly, and angels would do this gathering. (1)There will be NO NEED for angels to "gather" the saints, for the saints will all have bodies like the angels.(2)
(1)Gathering of the Elects =Saints who are alive and remain upon Jesus second coming... this will include converted Jews.
(2)Not until the dead in Christ (Saints) are resurrected upon Jesus second coming.Then they will be gathered with those in Christ still alive to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air....
Iamlamad said:
Let's suppose for a moment that there is no pretrib gathering. What ever saints are left alive on earth in Rev. 19:14 would suddenly be caught up as Jesus is descending. Forget God taking the saints to the place prepared for them, as in John 14. God was just daydreaming when He wrote that. Just rewrite that to say that God will bring those mansions or abodes to the saints here on earth. After all, from this point on Jesus will be on the earth. So the saints are caught up, some to join with their spirits, and then just return down to the earth to fight the battle of Armageddon.
Nice attempt at straw man.I have not rewrite anything.
Are you sure that you know really the meaning of John 14 ? You focus only on verses 2 and 3
Lets see the context....
Obviously Jesus have not returned to take his apostles to those mansions while they were alive but Jesus have send to them the Comforter (Holy Spirit) who will abide with them for ever. (v16)
John 14 (KJV)
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
I will address the rest of your post later.
Here ya go:
Iamlamad said:
Now, rewrite Rev. 19 to, to fit your theory:
This is your theory written as you believe it. This is what you are sure John meant anyway. You have had to rewrite two portions of scripture at least, but probably many more, like moving Rev. 6 or at least the 6th seal, to the end. But, you don't care about these little things: just rearrange to fit your theory!
Can you show where i have rewrited anything or moved the order of chapters ?
Iamlamad said:
My question to you is, would you consider this the equivalent of adding to or taking away from scripture?
Like i said earlier,nice attempt at building a straw man.I have not added or removed anything.And i feel comfortable with the order of chapters presented in Revelation. You are the one adding to the words in Revelation by saying that the great earthquake of the 6 th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising...