• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Theistic evolutionists: was Adam a specific person?

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I didn't say he did.



I haven't made anything up as I never said Paul gave his opinion on the matter.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

-CryptoLutheran
Paul mentioned creation, so we know his opinion.


Col 1:16 -For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No. Each new mutation that contributed to making us human started in one individual, but that individual was always part of a larger population.

I guess you are not clear enough.

For example, the large population is 1000 chimps.
The ONE INDIVIDUAL is the ONE chimp which mutated toward human.

So, to human, it was not a large population. It was just ONE, the very first one.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No. Each new mutation that contributed to making us human started in one individual, but that individual was always part of a larger population.

OK, another view:

Suppose 1000 chimps started to mutate toward human. 500 of them made the first mutation toward the right direction (quite unlikely already). After that 100/500 made the second right mutation. And so on. By the time the original chimp evolved into a sort-of-human, how many would be there? I don't think it would be a "large" number. It would probably be less than ONE.
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,863
7,882
65
Massachusetts
✟397,974.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No proof possible then. All pi in the sky. No reason to believe that, it is just some godless flight of fancy based on how some things now mutate, right?
It's called "reality", dad. You should check it out some time, rather than indulging in your flights of fancy about "different state past".
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Juvi wrote:
Originally Posted by Papias

Good question, since it is not easy for most people to imagine. The key is to think over many generations, remembering that mutations are spread due to reproduction and natural selection, and also remembering that one's number of descendants increases geometrically, which means that before too long, the entire population is descended from any given previous individual. This is explained step by step below.


Only one need "make it" (and it's not one step for the mutations anyway). That one will have kids, after all. If their many little mutational changes are beneficial, they will, on average, be selected for and soon be present in everyone in the whole population.

So, all human population began with ONE, not a big number.

Yes, one ensouled human who was a member of a large breeding population of the same biological species. The key here is that "human" in the model above means "ape who has a soul", and does NOT mean "Homo sapiens".


sfs wrote:

Originally Posted by juvenissun
So, all human population began with ONE, not a big number.


No. Each new mutation that contributed to making us human started in one individual, but that individual was always part of a larger population.

Note that sfs is correct also, because he's referring to the species, which always had a large population.

Juvi wrote:
OK, another view:

No. Your description ignores the facts of a breeding population. Did you understand the model explained in post #70? If so, could you explain it a bit to show that you understand? Please don't confuse our discussion by going off on another model before you understand the one under discussion. Thanks.

Juvi, do you see how this model reconciles the idea of one original person with a soul, and the fact of a continuously large breeding population, regardless of whether or not you agree with the model?

In Christ -
Papias
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Juvi wrote:


Yes, one ensouled human who was a member of a large breeding population of the same biological species. The key here is that "human" in the model above means "ape who has a soul", and does NOT mean "Homo sapiens".

Evolution of soul? :liturgy:
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,863
7,882
65
Massachusetts
✟397,974.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Evolution of soul? :liturgy:
No. He's talking about God directly giving souls to two individuals, not about souls evolving. (It's not a model I find persuasive, but it's consistent with evolutionary evidence.)
 
Upvote 0

Willtor

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor
Apr 23, 2005
9,713
1,429
44
Cambridge
Visit site
✟39,787.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Willtor's response to the OP (since many pages have passed):

I think the story is mythological, so I don't see how to read any historical specifics out of it. Therefore, I couldn't say whether there was a first pair who were "awakened" to life in God (and possibly life apart from God), or whether there was a more gradual awakening in society or societies. The St. Paul question is a good question, though:

---

I think it's likely that he thought there was a first man, but it is not clear to me that he took the Fall account as an historical set of events. This is kind of a funny distinction to make, I admit, but it's less strange in his time and culture. If you forget evolution for a moment, what other possibility is there than that there was a first couple? There was probably nobody of his day that thought there wasn't a first pair of humans: Jew, Christian, Pagan, etc. But the question is still open whether the account in Genesis is an historical record of those individuals. Some people thought so, but others didn't.

In St. Paul's case, if he took the Genesis account as an historical record of events, the passages you mention become anomalous:

For example (from the Romans 5 passage), it's hard to imagine a literalist saying that death came to all people because all sinned, in reference to Adam's sin. That puts all people in the place of Adam. Notice that, even as he compares Christ to Adam, he doesn't say the same thing for Christians: that all are alive because all are righteous, in reference to Christ's righteousness. There's an imbalance between sin and righteousness, and he goes on to elaborate.

But the value of the dichotomy between Adam and Jesus is in whom one finds one's origin. So, you identify with Adam or you identify with Jesus. This is true, in St. Paul's reading of the account, even if Adam was not an historical person, because all are in the place of Adam, already. Mind you, I would be surprised if he ever asked the question in the first place, but his theology doesn't require it.

None of this means that he didn't also take the account literally: that this was an historical tale of the first people, who I am sure he really did think existed as individuals. Merely, people of his time disagreed as to the historicity of the story, and his references don't make it clear as to which side he took (if either).

TL;DR: St. Paul probably thought Adam was an historical person, his theology didn't depend on it, and it is grey in my mind as to whether he took the Fall account as an historical record of events.

A bit of post-analysis: What would it mean to me if it became clear that he thought the account was historical? Suppose another epistle is unearthed, where St. Paul is very explicit on this point.

I would not change my view. As a form of literature, the creation accounts and the garden story are something akin to a mythology. The theology of sin that is argued in the Romans passage could be used to write the Fall account as a myth if it did not already exist.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I guess you are not clear enough.

For example, the large population is 1000 chimps.
The ONE INDIVIDUAL is the ONE chimp which mutated toward human.

So, to human, it was not a large population. It was just ONE, the very first one.

Lets say its 1000 Homo erectus (why you continue claiming chimps are our ancestors is beyond me).
One individual has a mutation eventually leading to humans. The new allele spreads among the population because it is beneficial. Other mutations produce other alleles that also spread. This is how natural selection works. Eventually the population is more human-like.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Juvi wrote:
Evolution of soul?

As sfs pointed out, no, the soul is created and given as a miracle from God. This is clearly stated in post #70, when the model is explained. Did you read it? If not, could you go back and read post #70?

Thanks-

Papias
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It's called "reality", dad. You should check it out some time, rather than indulging in your flights of fancy about "different state past".
Reality of how life processes now work is not reality about how they did in Noah's day. No flight of phoney science fancy can change that. Admit your religious methodology is bogus.
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I guess you are not clear enough.

For example, the large population is 1000 chimps.
The ONE INDIVIDUAL is the ONE chimp which mutated toward human.

So, to human, it was not a large population. It was just ONE, the very first one.

But from being not human to being human is not the result of a single mutation. It took hundreds of mutations, and being human involves having language and culture as well as having the right genes. There would have been intermediate stages where one could question whether or not this grouping is, yet, a tribe of humans.
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Reality of how life processes now work is not reality about how they did in Noah's day. No flight of phoney science fancy can change that. Admit your religious methodology is bogus.

Please, tell us how reality of life processes was working different in Noah's day. Be specific.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please, tell us how reality of life processes was working different in Noah's day. Be specific.

All the animals were on the ark, and not eating each other. From there, we got all the species we now know. That means probably most evolving in the fossil record, after the KT layer, happened in a few hundred years. That is very different.

Noah lived many many centuries. Very very different. Noah found a tree growing days or weeks from the time there was no plant life. That is fast. That is different. It is not a stretch to think how fast growing little creatures or bacteria like thingies could decompose a body real fast, or some facet of the nature of that day. Not at all.


No excuse for being lost and confused in the fossil record any longer.
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,863
7,882
65
Massachusetts
✟397,974.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Reality of how life processes now work is not reality about how they did in Noah's day. No flight of phoney science fancy can change that. Admit your religious methodology is bogus.
Hmm. My religious methodology is pretty much standard Protestant Christianity. Are you sure you want me to admit that it's bogus? (Also, stop telling me how to do my job.)
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,863
7,882
65
Massachusetts
✟397,974.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Lets say its 1000 Homo erectus (why you continue claiming chimps are our ancestors is beyond me).
One individual has a mutation eventually leading to humans. The new allele spreads among the population because it is beneficial. Other mutations produce other alleles that also spread. This is how natural selection works. Eventually the population is more human-like.
Right. Other mutations occur in other individuals -- sometimes individuals in the same generation of the population.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hmm. My religious methodology is pretty much standard Protestant Christianity. Are you sure you want me to admit that it's bogus? (Also, stop telling me how to do my job.)
The religious methodology referred to obviously was so called science. As for your closet beliefs other than that, not interested. I can tell more by words one speaks.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
But from being not human to being human is not the result of a single mutation. It took hundreds of mutations, and being human involves having language and culture as well as having the right genes. There would have been intermediate stages where one could question whether or not this grouping is, yet, a tribe of humans.

Of course. But majority of them died off and ONLY ONE made it to modern human. Any way you look at it, it is still just ONE, not many.

Further, I would assume ALL mutations are slightly different from each other. Right? So, there would be only ONE correct mutation which progressed into human. No matter how big was the population at the beginning.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Of course. But majority of them died off and ONLY ONE made it to modern human. Any way you look at it, it is still just ONE, not many.

Further, I would assume ALL mutations are slightly different from each other. Right? So, there would be only ONE correct mutation which progressed into human. No matter how big was the population at the beginning.

No. A number of different mutations can all result in a similar effect. There is no "one correct" mutation necessary. For example, there are a number of mutations that can change an acidic amino acid into a hydrophobic amino acid.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,452
805
73
Chicago
✟138,626.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Right. Other mutations occur in other individuals -- sometimes individuals in the same generation of the population.

Here could be the key. Are you saying that these "other individuals" are also evolving toward humans?

If so, we should have many human species at earlier time and gradually merged(?) into one (why?). Is that right?
 
Upvote 0