Did the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday?

[listed]

Here we see the CHANGE/transfer argument and we also see that they apply the term "Lord's Day" prior to the cross - to the seventh-day, Saturday, the Sabbath in "unbent" form.

Conversation with your self must be very self entertaining.

 

[BobRyan]

Here for example we have a Catholic commentator - far superior - far beyond the video personality claiming to show what the RCC does or does not claim.

===============================


Originally Posted by BobRyan

A Bible text then??? Is that what you want to propose.

"I the Lord Jesus am your Sabbath and have bent the Lord's day from the Sabbath SEVENTH day to now point to week-day-1 for week-day-1 is now the Lord's Day fulfilling the Sabbath Commandment moral obligation that is still-binding on all the saints. "??

I look forward to your finding such a text..

Popcorn in hand... this should be good.

Because on THIS point - I think all will see that Leo Trese's point about " no Bible text for this change" holds up to a close review of scripture.

[FONT=&quot](from "The Faith Explained" page 243[/FONT][FONT=&quot].))

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]we know that in the O.T it was the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the week - the Sabbath day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- which was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]observed as the Lord's day[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. that was [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the law as God gave it[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]church had the right to make such a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is evident[/FONT][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The reason for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot] lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday.[/FONT][FONT=&quot].that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]
​

Recall from the OP that the entire point of the thread was making false accusations against the Seventh-day Adventist church by claiming that the Catholic sources quoted from the CCC and from their own commentaries and historians do not claim they had anything to do with a change in Sabbath observance (the Sabbath commandment moral obligation) or a change in the Lord's Day from the Bible Sabbath -- to some other day.

But I have shown from the actual sources - that the RCC does in fact make these claims - and thus that the OP false accusation is exposed.

Because "details matter".

The basis on which I and others argue for and support our position are writings (Scripture, other religious and secular) predating the time your church says the first pope came into power.

So then - back to the subject of this thread..

Are you in favor of -- or are you opposing the OP -- ??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Trese appears to be right in his claim that there is no Bible text for the change.

#85

I find that "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BukiRob]

Like it or not, Catholicism carried the torch of Christianity. One of their arguments about keeping The Ten Commandment is:



Sabbatarians hold that the Sabbath is part of the decalogue, which is the immutable law of God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that the ten commandments are "fundamentally immutable" (no. 2072). However, the Church considers the Sabbath to have two.aspects: an essential part to worship the Lord on one day per week and a ceremonial part as to the exact day.

Yes they did.... and the changing of Sabbath is error, gross error to be specific.

To be blunt, I care not what the "church" thinks I care what SCRIPTURE STATES. Scripture reveals truth to ALL who earnestly seek it.....

To be clear Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday. Scripture is crystal clear on this. Man has no power, right or authority to change what G-d the most high has decreed.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes they did.... and the changing of Sabbath is error, gross error to be specific.

To be blunt, I care not what the "church" thinks I care what SCRIPTURE STATES. Scripture reveals truth to ALL who earnestly seek it.....

To be clear Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday. Scripture is crystal clear on this. Man has no power, right or authority to change what G-d the most high has decreed.

Good points but notice the post you are quoting a subtle "rewrite" is inserted into the Sabbath Commandment of Ex 20 - instead "the SEVENTH day is THE Sabbath of the LORD thy God" we have "A Seventh day of your choosing". Or "One day in Seven as long as it is a 7 day cycle".

That language is not found anywhere in the Sabbath Commandment yet as the post you are quoting shows - that language is to be "inserted" as if this is what God had said.

In Ex 16 we have "Tomorrow IS THE Sabbath" and to emphasize the point - no food falls from heaven on Sabbath - so if one were to "make up their own one day in seven for Sabbath" they would starve/fast without any food two days a week, every week for the next 40 years.

Simply not what they were doing -- as we all know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

So then - back to the subject of this thread..

Are you in favor of -- or are you opposing the OP -- ??

in Christ,

Bob

Is that not self evident?

 

[BukiRob]

Good points but notice the post you are quoting a subtle "rewrite" is inserted into the Sabbath Commandment of Ex 20 - instead "the SEVENTH day is THE Sabbath of the LORD thy God" we have "A Seventh day of your choosing". Or "One day in Seven as long as it is a 7 day cycle".

That language is not found anywhere in the Sabbath Commandment yet as the post you are quoting shows - that language is to be "inserted" as if this is what God had said.

In Ex 16 we have "Tomorrow IS THE Sabbath" and to emphasize the point - no food falls from heaven on Sabbath - so if one were to "make up their own one day in seven for Sabbath" they would starve/fast without any food two days a week, every week for the next 40 years.

Simply not what they were doing -- as we all know.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes... Sabbath starts at sunset Friday and ends sunset Saturday. Its been that was since creation and will be until the end of all things

 

[listed]

Yes they did.... and the changing of Sabbath is error, gross error to be specific.

To be blunt, I care not what the "church" thinks I care what SCRIPTURE STATES. Scripture reveals truth to ALL who earnestly seek it.....

To be clear Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday. Scripture is crystal clear on this. Man has no power, right or authority to change what G-d the most high has decreed.

That fact about the 7th day Sabbath is correct. That is not the issue before us.

 

[listed]

Yes... Sabbath starts at sunset Friday and ends sunset Saturday. Its been that was since creation and will be until the end of all things

Scripture will not support this claim.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes they did.... and the changing of Sabbath is error, gross error to be specific.

To be blunt, I care not what the "church" thinks I care what SCRIPTURE STATES. Scripture reveals truth to ALL who earnestly seek it.....

To be clear Sabbath starts at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday. Scripture is crystal clear on this. Man has no power, right or authority to change what G-d the most high has decreed.

Catholic Church official documents states that Sabbath is distinguished from the first day of the week.
History prove that Christians worshipped on the first day of the week because Christ had risen on that day.

 

[BobRyan]

here is official CCC statements

Catholic Catechism claims that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments - the [FONT=&quot]Decalogue - remains binding such that the Sabbath Commandment is simply "bent" to point to week-day 1 and all 10 remain binding.


[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.

[/FONT]

 

[BukiRob]

Catholic Church official documents states that Sabbath is distinguished from the first day of the week.
History prove that Christians worshipped on the first day of the week because Christ had risen on that day.

I really am not swayed by what the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) says. SHOW ME SCRIPTURE

James makes it clear in his decree to the gentiles in 15: 21 by saying: For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

 

[BobRyan]

Here we have official CCC statements claiming to make the change.

[FONT=&quot]from [/FONT]#[FONT=&quot]69[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IN BRIEF[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).
2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.
2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).
2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

========================================================
Catholic Encyclopedia -

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]NewAdvent[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]St. Cæsarius of Arles in the sixth century teaching that the holy Doctors of the Church had decreed that the whole glory of the Jewish Sabbath had been transferred to the Sunday, and that Christians must keep the Sunday holy in the same way as the Jews had been commanded to keep holy the Sabbath Day. He especially insisted on the people hearing the whole of the Mass and not leaving the church after the Epistle and the Gospel had been read. He taught them that they should come to Vespers and spend the rest of the day in pious reading and prayer. As with the Jewish Sabbath, the observance of the Christian Sunday began with sundown on Saturday and lasted till the same time on Sunday[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]…[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. It begins with an Edict of Constantine, the first Christian emperor, who forbade judges to sit and townspeople to work on Sunday. He made an exception in favour of agriculture. The breaking of the law of Sunday rest was punished by the Anglo-Saxon legislation in England like other crimes and misdemeanours. After the Reformation, under Puritan influence, many laws were passed in England whose effect is still visible in the stringency of the English Sabbath. Still more is this the case in Scotland.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
================================================== end CE

Current Catechism on the Sabbath Commandment -

IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).
2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.
2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).
2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by bugkiller [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are you trying to get them to close their church on Sunday?

bugkiller[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No.

I am showing that...

1. they maintain that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are still in force.
2. They apply the force of the Sabbath Commandment to week-day-1.
3. This evolved over time from Sabbath keeping, to war against the Sabbath Commandment .. to enforcement of Sunday under the cover of the Sabbath Commandment. Such that today when you look up what they say about the Sabbath Commandment - they apply it today - to week-day-1

It came about in stages with the 3rd stage - uniquely Catholic.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

Catholic Church official documents states that Sabbath is distinguished from the first day of the week.
History prove that Christians worshipped on the first day of the week because Christ had risen on that day.
​

I really am not swayed by what the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) says. SHOW ME SCRIPTURE

James makes it clear in his decree to the gentiles in 15: 21 by saying: For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Amen! We should follow scripture - not man-made tradition Mark 7;6-13

 

[listed]

Here we have official CCC statements claiming to make the change.

No.

I am showing that...

1. they maintain that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are still in force.
2. They apply the force of the Sabbath Commandment to week-day-1.
3. This evolved over time from Sabbath keeping, to war against the Sabbath Commandment .. to enforcement of Sunday under the cover of the Sabbath Commandment. Such that today when you look up what they say about the Sabbath Commandment - they apply it today - to week-day-1

It came about in stages with the 3rd stage - uniquely Catholic.

The above is also a quoted from BobRyan.

The RCC has no influence over the day I worship on. They have changed neither Sunday nor Saturday as a day of worship. What they bind on their adherents is their business.

__________________

 

[listed]

Amen! We should follow scripture - not man-made tradition Mark 7;6-13

I beg the readers here to read Col 2 about beguiling others.

 

[BukiRob]

No.

I am showing that...

1. they maintain that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are still in force.
2. They apply the force of the Sabbath Commandment to week-day-1.
3. This evolved over time from Sabbath keeping, to war against the Sabbath Commandment .. to enforcement of Sunday under the cover of the Sabbath Commandment. Such that today when you look up what they say about the Sabbath Commandment - they apply it today - to week-day-1

It came about in stages with the 3rd stage - uniquely Catholic.

The above is also a quoted from BobRyan.

The RCC has no influence over the day I worship on. They have changed neither Sunday nor Saturday as a day of worship. What they bind on their adherents is their business.

__________________

And it is error.

And Im sorry, but scripture doesnt allow for you or I to pick a day, any day for observing Sabbath.

G-d chose a SPECIFIC DAY and scripture declares that Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.

It is a specific day that is set aside and sanctified. We dont get to pick which day. Adonai PICKED THE DAY.

 

[listed]

I really am not swayed by what the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) says. SHOW ME SCRIPTURE

James makes it clear in his decree to the gentiles in 15: 21 by saying: For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity past or present.

 

[listed]

And it is error.

And Im sorry, but scripture doesnt allow for you or I to pick a day, any day for observing Sabbath.

G-d chose a SPECIFIC DAY and scripture declares that Gen 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [a]and made.

It is a specific day that is set aside and sanctified. We dont get to pick which day. Adonai PICKED THE DAY.

I do not care what the RCC does to their religious adherents. I am not RCC.

Next we have a New Covenant which is not according to the Old Covenant issued at Sinai that they broke. See Jer 31.

 

[BobRyan]

on the contrary -- I am very careful in "exactly" what I claim for each of those sections --

for example ...

And of course here they argue their case for "Ten Commandments NOT Abolished" -

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.



[FONT=&quot]As Pope John Paul [FONT=&quot]II argues that "continued" view [FONT=&quot]f[FONT=&quot]or the S[FONT=&quot]abbath Comma[FONT=&quot]ndment - bent to point to week-day-1[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT]
Pope John Paul II

[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]

In case you forgot (I doubt it), this thread is about change of Sabbath to Sunday. Your citing of CCC does not establish what God requires of Christians.

the OP includes a video where the false accusation is made against Seventh-day Adventist -- to the effect that the Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath Commandment -- though SDAs show CCC and RCC source after source that they did.

Here is an intelligent, short and to the point video about Sunday worship's origin.

I do not succumb to Catholic beliefs and practices. I do my best to report historical truths. My goal is to present that the foundational day of worship was established on biblical arguments made thousands of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joHiQsgDTs4

SDA claim to use the Catechism to show what Catholics believe. Are they telling the truth about what Catholics believe? It's should obvious to them how Sunday is not kept as a 24hr Sabbath as describe in the law.

The bending of the moral obligation of the Sabbath commandment is clear in the CCC - making it apply to week-day-1.

And the continued insistence on the moral law of the TEN Commandments is also clear in the CCC and many other leading Catholic sources as well not just Pope John Paul II.

in Christ,

Bob