• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Christ did not come to downsize diminish abolish or destroy the LAW of God

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]


Notice how Christ and Paul appear to agree rather than contradict each other?

Christ even appears to agree with some of what we find in Proverbs 28

Prov 28

4Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.
..
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.


Just as we would all expect - before the cross. Yet this is the "scripture" being read by NT saints in all NT texts "scripture" is a reference to the OT.

As for teaching of Christ, the Words of Christ - not throwing Moses under a bus

Luke 16
17 ... it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


As for not throwing Moses under a bus by setting aside one of the TEN Commandments - Christ makes that point in Mark 7.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??

How then does Christ's "Affirming" the LAW of God - the Commandments of God get bent into claims that Christ was at war with ... attempted to downsize...tried to diminish.. the Law of God?

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Give me Jesus - AND the Words that Jesus actually spoke.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited:

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Does Jesus MAGNIFY or diminish the LAW of God - according to His OWN claims? Is Jesus replacing the LAW of God -- downsizing all known scripture to one commandment in John 13?

For example in John 13
31 Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus *said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; 32 if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately. 33 Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Or is this MAGNIFYING - what was already quoted by Christ in Matt 22?

Matt 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
(Deut 6:5)


38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
(Lev 19:18 quoted there)



The command of Jesus in John 13 - magnifies one of HIS quotes from Lev 19:18 in Matt 22.

Christ's Law always MAGNIFIED the Commandments of God.

Christ illustrated this in Matt 5
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
 
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,993
2,068
✟108,451.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Christ did not come to downsize diminish abolish or destroy the LAW of God

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31


Notice how Christ and Paul appear to agree rather than contradict each other?
What kind of bible study are you doing BobRyan???
You're exposing how arguments are made by dragging scriptures into a bogus agenda.

In Matt 5:17-19, Jesus is letting us know that He did not come to change a dot or comma from the OT bible. (law and the prophets.)
If that was His objective, the prophets account would be questionable if God's word from the prophets of old does not prove as 100% truth.
Jesus came to fulfill every word that was spoken about Him.

Trying to extract 1 text from Rom 3:17-31 for your agenda is also a novice game that backfires in your face. Any who read Rom3 can be sure that Paul explains critical mysteries of the gospel, never heard before but reiterated from all over the bible.

Paul explained in Rom3 that Righteousness without the law, is written in the law and the prophets. That fact reiterates what Jeremiah claimed about the New Covenant.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


These scriptures spells out that God's new covenant is for righteousness. It is not like the one given to the fathers. (the law).

Somehow you trying to promote the law with a context that reached this conclusion.
Rom 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
What kind of bible study are you doing BobRyan???
You're exposing how arguments are made by dragging scriptures into a bogus agenda.

The catholic church in the dark ages was opposed to having the scripture brought in and constantly comparing odd man-made-traditions to the Bible.

In fact if you look at the "sola scriptura" threads that get started now and then in GT you will see some of those same arguments repeated.

As for me.

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]


Notice how Christ and Paul appear to agree rather than contradict each other?

Christ even appears to agree with some of what we find in Proverbs 28

Prov 28

4Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.
..
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.


Just as we would all expect - before the cross. Yet this is the "scripture" being read by NT saints in all NT texts "scripture" is a reference to the OT.

As for teaching of Christ, the Words of Christ - not throwing Moses under a bus

Luke 16
17 ... it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


As for not throwing Moses under a bus by setting aside one of the TEN Commandments - Christ makes that point in Mark 7.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??

How then does Christ's "Affirming" the LAW of God - the Commandments of God get bent into claims that Christ was at war with ... attempted to downsize...tried to diminish.. the Law of God?

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Give me Jesus - AND the Words that Jesus actually spoke.

Cribstyl said:
These scriptures spells out that God's new covenant is for righteousness. It is not like the one given to the fathers. (the law).

Somehow you trying to promote the law with a context that reached this conclusion.
You appear to admit that the texts in the OP promote God's Law rather than condemning it.

New Covenant - writes the LAW of God on the heart and on the mind. Hebrews 8.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,993
2,068
✟108,451.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
You appear to admit that the texts in the OP promote God's Law rather than condemning it.

New Covenant - writes the LAW of God on the heart and on the mind. Hebrews 8.

in Christ,

Bob
Did I really say that BobRyan????


I quoted and responded to the first 2 texts in your post #1 (Matt5:17-19 and Rom3:31). Your discussion about Christ not diminishing the LAW of God, is not spelled out in the dialog we get from those text.
 
Upvote 0

Cribstyl

Veteran
Jun 13, 2006
8,993
2,068
✟108,451.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The catholic church in the dark ages was opposed to having the scripture brought in and constantly comparing odd man-made-traditions to the Bible.

In fact if you look at the "sola scriptura" threads that get started now and then in GT you will see some of those same arguments repeated.

As for me.

Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Yeah, let's stick to interpreting the bible say and leave the Catholic church out of it. Their historical archive does reveals Christian beliefs over the centuries.
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]


Notice how Christ and Paul appear to agree rather than contradict each other?

Christ even appears to agree with some of what we find in Proverbs 28

Prov 28

4Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.
..
9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.


Just as we would all expect - before the cross. Yet this is the "scripture" being read by NT saints in all NT texts "scripture" is a reference to the OT.

As for teaching of Christ, the Words of Christ - not throwing Moses under a bus

Luke 16
17 ... it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


As for not throwing Moses under a bus by setting aside one of the TEN Commandments - Christ makes that point in Mark 7.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??

How then does Christ's "Affirming" the LAW of God - the Commandments of God get bent into claims that Christ was at war with ... attempted to downsize...tried to diminish.. the Law of God?

Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible.

Give me Jesus - AND the Words that Jesus actually spoke.

in Christ,

Bob
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. JN 15

What are the commandments of Jesus' Father that He kept?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. JN 15

What are the commandments of Jesus' Father that He kept?

You just quoted Jesus identifying the "Word of God" the "Commandment of God" in His own words.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God" AND the "Commandment of God"
 
Upvote 0

muddleglum

Junior Member
May 1, 2015
248
31
✟23,060.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
You started in Matthew but Luke goes back a little earlier and gives us Gentiles more context.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Going back to Matthew, because he was addressing the followers of the Law in his Gospel.

Jesus also said in the Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

In Matthew 12:2 we read of when the disciples worked on the Sabbath:
But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

Note first that Matthew usually uses a different Greek word for *The Law,* so it is significant that he uses a different one here for what the Pharisees says. Jesus first made use of the Pharisees' word when He reminded the Pharisees about David,
Matthew 12:4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not *lawful* for him to eat
Jesus then switched back to the word he usually used when he brought up the priests:5 "Or have you not read in *the Law,* that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

The Pharisees use of the word is rooted in public display and could be translated as proper. There is some interaction here that I don't understand. But I do know that Jesus held a different conception of what the Law was about.

Paul agrees:
Romans 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
That is, David knew the Lord and trusted Him. His view of the Law was that of a relationship.

Although the Law was holy, it had limits.
Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."
How much of the Law was permissive because of the hardness of their heart?

Later, in the passage at 22:35 when Jesus was nearing the end of his course, He again brought out what the Law was pointing to:
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied with the Shema, which was repeated every morning by every man and includes loving God as well as loving your neighbor as yourself. He went on to say,
(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Not much later, in 23:23 after that Jesus noted how they tithed what to them were as grass clippings to us:
(Matthew 23:23) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: 3551 justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Those weightier provisions are what Paul is pointing out in Galatians as well as other places: we can do nothing without God working in us.

The last time we see the word law in the KJV translation of Matthew, we find:
Matthew 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.</font>

As I said a while ago the Pharisses used a different word that was translated *Law.*
1st This word means literally "out in public" according to Strongs, and,
2nd, it can rightfully be translated Law because that is how Mark translated the concept, as seen when comparing the parallel verses of both Matthew and Luke to Mark. To the Gentile reader, it would mean something more along the lines of *proper* or *right.* To the Jews reading Matthew, however, it would hint that the Pharisees and Jesus had a different understanding of the Law.


---

Skipping over Mark to Luke.

Luke shows how Jesus bracketed His earthly ministry by Law with the opening bracket being at the Sermon on the Mount, which you already noted, and the closing bracket being after He was resurrected. The closing bracket was repeated three times in chapter 24. Here's the third time:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

This is the same Greek word as translated *fulfilled* in Matthew 5:17. So it seems that all things have been fulfilled, at least for the Christians.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You started in Matthew but Luke goes back a little earlier and gives us Gentiles more context.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Going back to Matthew, because he was addressing the followers of the Law in his Gospel.

Matt 5 agrees with Luke 16 on that point.

[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31[/FONT]


Notice how Christ and Paul appear to agree rather than contradict each other?

And of course Luke 16 makes this point at the end.

30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jesus also said in the Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 7:12 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

True - even Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is one of the great Commandments even before the cross - even in the OT - As Christ affirms in Matt 22.

In Matthew 12:2 we read of when the disciples worked on the Sabbath:
But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

As noted in Mark 2 as well - the Jews were "making stuff up" when it came to walking through the field and take a handful of wheat to eat. Christ was all about telling them "not to condemn the innocent" as He says in Mark 2 and Matt 12.

He was standing for the correct observance of the commands of scripture - and all against the man-made traditions added on by the Jews.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Pharisees use of the word is rooted in public display and could be translated as proper. There is some interaction here that I don't understand. But I do know that Jesus held a different conception of what the Law was about.

Jesus repeatedly condemned the Jews for "making stuff up" as we see in Mark 7:6-13. It is a common theme in the Gospels and in some of the NT letters.



Although the Law was holy, it had limits.
Matthew 19:7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."
How much of the Law was permissive because of the hardness of their heart?
Civil laws cannot be inclusive of the high standard of personal laws such as turning the other cheek when struck. If you assign jail time to victims because they fail to turn the other cheek you actually have an unjust civil law even though it is a great Law at the individual level.

Christ always "magnifies" the Law - when we are talking about the real Law in the real Bible.

Later, in the passage at 22:35 when Jesus was nearing the end of his course, He again brought out what the Law was pointing to:
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied with the Shema, which was repeated every morning by every man and includes loving God as well as loving your neighbor as yourself. He went on to say,
(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Indeed Jesus points to Mosaic Law as the two greatest commandments.

Deut 6:5 - "Love God with all your heart"

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

He was all about uphold the Law of the actual Bible.





Skipping over Mark to Luke.

Luke shows how Jesus bracketed His earthly ministry by Law with the opening bracket being at the Sermon on the Mount, which you already noted, and the closing bracket being after He was resurrected. The closing bracket was repeated three times in chapter 24. Here's the third time:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

This is the same Greek word as translated *fulfilled* in Matthew 5:17. So it seems that all things have been fulfilled, at least for the Christians.
Same word used by Christ with John the baptizer to "fulfill all righteousness" in being baptized.

And we all know that this does not mean that "unrighteousness" is the only thing left for us to fulfill.

Paul argues that it is only the lost that "do not submit" to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they by contrast to the saints.

Romans 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

[FONT=&quot]
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

[FONT=&quot]The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

And so in [FONT=&quot]Luke 16 the [FONT=&quot]Law remains even af[FONT=&quot]ter [FONT=&quot]John as we see in vs 17 and 18.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 &#8220;Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As we see again in 1John 5:1-4

[FONT=&quot]No wonder even the [FONT=&quot]"Baptist Confession of Faith" affirms the Ten Commandments as the m[FONT=&quot]oral law of God binding on all the saint[FONT=&quot]s in the OT and to this very[FONT=&quot] day.

[FONT=&quot]As does D.L. Moody affirm the same.[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

muddleglum

Junior Member
May 1, 2015
248
31
✟23,060.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
Apparently you missed some things. Let me make a few of them more obvious.

You started in Matthew but Luke goes back a little earlier and gives us Gentiles more context.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Apparently you missed some things. Let me make a few of them more obvious.

You started in Matthew but Luke goes back a little earlier and gives us Gentiles more context.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

you are quoting a chapter that tells us that the LAW lasts until heaven and earth passes away and that same chapter ends by telling us that if we ignore Moses we will not accept the real teaching of Christ.

Luke 16
[FONT=&quot]16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] &#8220;The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 &#8220;Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 24[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]44[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."[/FONT]



Is this supposed to contradict Christ's teaching in Matt 5 where he condemns anyone that dares to downsize even the least of the commandments "and so teach others"??

[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 &#8220;Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]


If so it does not seem like much of a contradiction.

Christ points out that the Law and the prophets are predicting His coming and now starting with John - the message is that He HAS come. But even in that - the Law remains until heaven and earth pass away.

That sort of helps us see how it is that "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 in regard to the "Sabbath made for mankind and not mankind made for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 - subject.

This is why I referenced those texts after the cross showing the continued ongoing keeping of the Commandments of God by gentile Christians -- all Christians -- just as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and D.L. Moody also affirmed. This is a recognized detail that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship freely accepts.

in Christ,

Bob
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

duolos

ὁ δοῦλος
Apr 7, 2015
302
28
✟23,073.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
From the making of the moral laws a matter of the heart as opposed to a matter of the flesh, (Matt 5) to the magnification of what comes out of the body rather than what goes in to it as the source of uncleanness, (Mark 7) to the great glory of the call to be unified to Him in faith into the Rest of God, wrought from the foundation of the world. (Heb 3-4) What you call a lessening, has never been thought of as a weakening or abolishment, but a grandising, a lifting of the veil, to the true wonders and Glory of Him whom the Law pointed to.
 
Upvote 0

muddleglum

Junior Member
May 1, 2015
248
31
✟23,060.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan:
Although I agree with your title, I'm just pointing out that when we are talking about Christians:

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,

Or as the NASB has it:
5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person,

If you want to place yourself among, "...those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane..." this is a free universe. However, I'll stick "... to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I [Paul] have been entrusted."

Because:
"14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,"

In other words, as Paul said to the Galatians, "5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Is this only about circumcision?
"3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law."
In other words, we aren't under that obligation until we attempt to perform one act of the Law. And not only are you under obligation to keep the whole Law, but,
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Are we to sin, then?
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Naturally, if you love a person, you don't murder him nor do you steal from him. But now you are operating above the Law.

The Sabbath of the Lord is the rest of faith, so you should be resting in that faith every minute of every day. The tithe represents all that you have, so you should be using all that you have for the Lord. Again, if you want to limit your spiritual life to Saturday (and some of the feast days are specified as sabbaths, too) then do so. If you want to dedicate 90% of your income to yourself, be my guest. It works, somewhat, under the Law, but only in Christ can you live 100%.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan:
Although I agree with your title, I'm just pointing out that when we are talking about Christians:

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,

Or as the NASB has it:
5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person,

How is it that the law of Love - that Christ affirms in Matt 22... which is Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 as quoted by Christ there -- continued and affirmed in James 2 so not just Matt 22 "and Christ's own words"

How is it that this Law is "above the Law" or is "Not the Law" or is "setting aside the Law"??

Isn't that the very point Jesus refutes in Matt 5?

Using Law to abolish Law - esp using Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 does not work because as we see in Matt 22 even the Jews agreed with this teaching that the Law of Love forms the immovable indestructible foundation upon which all the law and the prophets rest.


If you want to place yourself among, "...those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane..." this is a free universe.

that is "the lost".

but what does Jesus say of the saved.

"IF you LOVE Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20

It is the "Saved" in Rom 8:4-9 that submit to and KEEP the Law of God.

It is the "saved" in Heb 8 that have the "LAW written on the mind and heart"

It is the "saved" in Rev 14:12 - saints - that "KEEP the Commandments of God AND have their faith in Jesus".

It is the "saved" in 1John 5:1-4 that demonstrate Love for God and Love for each other by "KEEPING the Commandments of God".

It is to the saved that Paul write "what MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And it is to the lost that Jesus says "in vain do they worship me" in Mark 7:6-13 where he shows how the sola scriptura principle hammers the supposedly sacred nation-church tradition of the Jewish magisterium

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

[FONT=&quot]
"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

[FONT=&quot]The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

And so in [FONT=&quot]Luke 16 the [FONT=&quot]Law remains even af[FONT=&quot]ter [FONT=&quot]John as we see in vs 17 and 18.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As we see again in 1John 5:1-4

[FONT=&quot]No wonder even the [FONT=&quot]"Baptist Confession of Faith" affirms the Ten Commandments as the m[FONT=&quot]oral law of God binding on all the saint[FONT=&quot]s in the OT and to this very[FONT=&quot] day.

[FONT=&quot]As does D.L. Moody affirm the same.


[FONT=&quot]===============================[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

The Sabbath of the Lord is the rest of faith, so you should be resting in that faith every minute of every day.

That is no change from the OT. Elijah and Moses stand in glorified form WITH Christ in Matt 17.

Heb 4:1 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also".

1Cor 10:1-4 "they all drank from the same spiritual Rock and that ROCK was Christ".

Gal 3:7 the "Gospel was preached to Abraham"

Gal 1:6-9 "There is only ONE Gospel".

Heb 8 - the LAW of God is written on the heart and mind - for the saved.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
1 John 2:1 "Sin not"

As for all eternity and all mankind

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,414
11,950
Georgia
✟1,103,374.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
[FONT=&quot]Matt 5
17 &#8220;Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Luke 16[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 &#8220;Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.[/FONT][/FONT]
 
Upvote 0