Does perfect pre-knowledge imply hard determinism?

[TillICollapse]

God is the only completely free agent. His actions are not determined by anything outside of himself, whereas ours most certainly are. Given the fact of gravity, you are not free to jump off of the Eiffel Tower without unfortunate consequences. God does not exist in a universe where he is constrained by its properties; he is a universe unto himself.

So in this view, God does not interact with our universe in any meaningful way as it concerns even His own free agency, yes ?

 

[Chesterton]

no it doesn't. God can predetermine our actions because he knows how we will act in any given situation, and the situations we find ourselves in are of his making. Our decisions are still ours.

Have you ever made prayers of supplication? As they do in the Old and New Testaments? As done in most any theistic religion?

 

[Albion]

This is a tough one.

I would say, perfect pre knowledge certainly could support hard determinism, but does it prove it without question, I would say no.

That's a good, sound answer. Rather than "support," I'd say "compatible with," but I'm pleased to see that there are those who understand.

 

[lesliedellow]

So in this view, God does not interact with our universe in any meaningful way as it concerns even His own free agency, yes ?

How do you work that out?

 

[contratodo]

God created systems within which "surprise" can happen, and then He Himself became a part of those systems so that He could experience "surprise"

 

[TillICollapse]

How do you work that out?

That convo was a month ago ... but I believe my train of thought was based off what I perceived you to be saying:

* God is a free agent, a universe unto Himself.
* Our universe is predetermined.

Thus, God does not exhibit any of His free will in our own universe. That is to say, if God wanted to change something in our universe ... He wouldn't/couldn't, because to do so would interrupt what was already predetermined. Thus, His own free agency according to that view renders God's freedom largely irrelevant in the context of our own environment.

 

[variant]

Yes, if the future is known before the universe is created then all actions are preordained, ie set in stone.

Especially so if you are also proposing a being with the ability to do whatever it wants and one that created the universe.

 

[variant]

That convo was a month ago ... but I believe my train of thought was based off what I perceived you to be saying:

* God is a free agent, a universe unto Himself.
* Our universe is predetermined.

Thus, God does not exhibit any of His free will in our own universe. That is to say, if God wanted to change something in our universe ... He wouldn't/couldn't, because to do so would interrupt what was already predetermined. Thus, His own free agency according to that view renders God's freedom largely irrelevant in the context of our own environment.

God could have predetermined his own points of input as well, or intervened all at once at the beginning where he thought it would be necessary.

 

[TillICollapse]

God could have predetermined his own points of input as well, or intervened all at once at the beginning where he thought it would be necessary.

Which still renders his "free agency" essentially meaningless in such a context, because "God" is unable to change His own actions or choices concerning our own causal chain. "God" would essentially be beholden to our own causal chain of events, regardless of whether or not His own choices were predetermined as points of input (in which He'd merely be playing out a role) or chosen all at once in a single instance.

 

[variant]

Which still renders his "free agency" essentially meaningless in such a context, because "God" is unable to change His own actions or choices concerning our own causal chain.

In this case it would be unwilling, if God wanted it different it would have done so from the start. The universe should already conform to God's wishes.

This doesn't mean God isn't a free agent it means that it already decided.

"God" would essentially be beholden to our own causal chain of events, regardless of whether or not His own choices were predetermined as points of input (in which He'd merely be playing out a role) or chosen all at once in a single instance.

Calling a thing beholden to it's own desires as a free agent is simply odd terminology.

If God had wanted it different it would have done things differently.

 

[TillICollapse]

In this case it would be unwilling, if God wanted it different it would have done so from the start. The universe should already conform to God's wishes.

This doesn't mean God isn't a free agent it means that it already decided.



Calling a thing beholden to it's own desires as a free agent is simply odd terminology.

If God had wanted it different it would have done things differently.

My point wasn't that "God", in this context, didn't have free agency ... rather it was that any such free agency is arguably meaningless from our standpoint, given the context.

 

[lesliedellow]

That convo was a month ago ... but I believe my train of thought was based off what I perceived you to be saying:

* God is a free agent, a universe unto Himself.
* Our universe is predetermined.

Thus, God does not exhibit any of His free will in our own universe. That is to say, if God wanted to change something in our universe ... He wouldn't/couldn't, because to do so would interrupt what was already predetermined. Thus, His own free agency according to that view renders God's freedom largely irrelevant in the context of our own environment.

God's freedom is total in determining what the history of the universe he creates will be. That history may or may not involve him in intervening directly at various points in its history. If he did, those interventions would just be part of the history he had preordained.

 

[TillICollapse]

God's freedom is total in determining what the history of the universe he creates will be. That history may or may not involve him in intervening directly at various points in its history. If he did, those interventions would just be part of the history he had preordained.

So such a view has God merely playing out a part which was pre-chosen to play out.

 

[lesliedellow]

So such a view has God merely playing out a part which was pre-chosen to play out.

It has God accomplishing his will, whatever that may be, and that is what absolute freedom means, isn't it?.

 

[TillICollapse]

It has God accomplishing his will.

What if "God" in this context wanted to change His mind ? Could he do so at some point in our experience ?

 

[variant]

My point wasn't that "God", in this context, didn't have free agency ... rather it was that any such free agency is arguably meaningless from our standpoint, given the context.

Why would our standpoint matter if we are deterministic entities?

I think you're asking the yeasts opinion of the brew master.

 

[TillICollapse]

Why would our standpoint matter if we are deterministic entities?

I think you're asking the yeasts opinion of the brew master.

Which is a decent analogy of why I was saying it's rather meaningless in such a context lol.

 

[variant]

Which is a decent analogy of why I was saying it's rather meaningless in such a context lol.

OK then I suppose we agree.

Not much is really going to "matter" in a deterministic universe though.

 

[TillICollapse]

OK then I suppose we agree.

Not much is really going to "matter" in a deterministic universe though.

Yes I think we are basically agreeing.

 

[lesliedellow]

What if "God" in this context wanted to change His mind ? Could he do so at some point in our experience ?

Omniscience, by definition, means that God has perfect knowledge of all his future actions, including "changes of mind", whatever that may mean in the case of an omniscient being.