Why do you believe in the evolution theory? (2)

[Loudmouth]

Everyone who talks about the Garden of Eden, brings up the matter of the talking serpent.

Don't forget the matter of the magic tree in the center of the garden, called 'The Tree of Life', as well as another tree called 'The Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil'

It's so got an Alice in Wonderland feel to it!

Exactly. Even more, it ties right in to the already existing Babylonian creation myth in the culture where Genesis was written. Originally, each of the Babylonian gods was credited for creating different things. In the Genesis myth, the creation of each type of thing is said to be created by the Hebrew God. It uses similar order, even. The Genesis myth also incorporates Lilith into the myth.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Yes, I used to worry about that. You know how it kinda meant that the Bible wasn't original; just a bunch of reworked hearsay; borrowed from other tales -- yet, what I find so fascinating is that these tales existed to begin with.

As I have stated elsewhere, I am not going to repeat myself -- but simply to say that these tales are like the diminishing ripples in what I think is rightly called cosmic time, where something ( eternity ? ) has repeatedly stirred it.

I think our mistake as a species is looking for the answers to this mystery through history, rather than going to this metaphorical lake and learning to listen with all our being (like good detectives) -- I found certain types of Contemplative prayer; Yoga or ancient disciplines can make this easier. (I shan't prescribe)

Obviously, the disciples of Jesus believed that the initial creation event was of less importance than experiencing the love of God the Father (in a new creation) -- St. Paul refers to those who are being remade as such, and John writes about 'sons and daughters of God' too, whereas Paul says some wonderful things about how we will in fact be the agency through which our groaning world is given a complete remake / all things will be new. The "rest" spoken of in Genesis and elsewhere in the OT, being completed in the one who said, 'Come unto me' (some believe it's still to come, others say it's partially here, some Futurists say 'it's already happened)

Something like that.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes, I used to worry about that. You know how it kinda meant that the Bible wasn't original; just a bunch of reworked hearsay; borrowed from other tales -- yet, what I find so fascinating is that these tales existed to begin with.

As I have stated elsewhere, I am not going to repeat myself -- but simply to say that these tales are like the diminishing ripples in what I think it rightly called cosmic time, where something ( eternity ? ) has repeatedly stirred it.

I think our mistake as a species is looking for the answers to this mystery through history, rather than going to this metaphorical lake and learning to listen with all our being (like good detectives) -- I found certain types of Contemplative prayer; Yoga or ancient disciples can make this easier.

Obviously, the disciples of Jesus believed that the initial creation event was of less importance than experiencing the love of God the Father (in a new creation) -- St. Paul refers to those who are being remade as such, and John writes about 'sons and daughters of God' too, whereas Paul says some wonderful things about how we will in fact be the agency through which our groaning world is given a complete remake / all things will be new. The "rest" spoken of in Genesis and elsewhere in the OT, being completed in the one who said, 'Come unto me' (some believe it's still to come, others say it's partially here, some Futurists say 'it's already happened)

Something like that.

The time before known memory was always treated as mystical by all human cultures. Borrowing and adding your own mythos to explain the greater mystery is entirely human. I don't think it brings Genesis down, or anything like that. Any truth that may or may not be found in Genesis has zero to do with the historical accuracy of a literal interpretation. You might as well expect the book "Animal House" to be a literal historical narrative in order to hold truth with respect to Communism and the Soviet Revolution.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

The time before known memory was always treated as mystical by all human cultures. Borrowing and adding your own mythos to explain the greater mystery is entirely human. I don't think it brings Genesis down, or anything like that. Any truth that may or may not be found in Genesis has zero to do with the historical accuracy of a literal interpretation. You might as well expect the book "Animal House" to be a literal historical narrative in order to hold truth with respect to Communism and the Soviet Revolution.

As usual you are speaking beyond my mind.
I tend to opt for a less rigorous approach to my experience of this, and go into the water when called -- the rest of the time, I couldn't give a hoot.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

"Animal House"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoS3-yHoaSY

 

[Loudmouth]

Hah!!

Meant to say "Animal Farm".

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hah!!

Meant to say "Animal Farm".

"Hai!"

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

It even has talking animals.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there was only 1 talking animal.

Now come to think of it, the NT writers record that Jesus made particular reference to certain ancient sacred texts. (In fact, there are quotes in the NT by others, referring to numerous ancient sacred texts - some we have, others not)

Anyhow, to this matter of what Jesus said about this "talking serpent"

He (Jesus) calls him a murderer, a liar, a thief and a destroyer. All the things which modern New Atheists have accused God of being.

Are we all, not looking for someone to blame for the evil in this world, the church and ourselves. How about you, Loudmouth -- who do you blame for it?

 

[crjmurray]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there was only 1 talking animal.

Now come to think of it, the NT writers record that Jesus made particular reference to certain ancient sacred texts. (In fact, there are quotes in the NT by others, referring to numerous ancient sacred texts - some we have, others not)

Anyhow, to this matter of what Jesus said about this "talking serpent"

He (Jesus) calls him a murderer, a liar, a thief and a destroyer. All the things which modern New Atheists have accused God of being.

Are we all, not looking for someone to blame for the evil in this world, the church and ourselves. How about you, Loudmouth -- who do you blame for it?

Beavers.

 

[Loudmouth]

Are we all, not looking for someone to blame for the evil in this world, the church and ourselves. How about you, Loudmouth -- who do you blame for it?

The beauty of atheism is that we can face the true evil . . . us. The reason that children die of cancer is that "stuff" happens, especially in a universe that could care less about our existence.

However, if there is a God, then why are 2 year old children dying of painful cancers? It makes sense in a universe that could care less about our plight, but how does that make sense in a universe where there is supposedly a deity who loves us? Would you allow the children you love to suffer painful deaths when you could cure them with nothing more than a snap of your fingers? If you withheld that cure, what kind of person would you be?

 

[justlookinla]

The beauty of atheism is that we can face the true evil . . . us. The reason that children die of cancer is that "stuff" happens, especially in a universe that could care less about our existence.

However, if there is a God, then why are 2 year old children dying of painful cancers? It makes sense in a universe that could care less about our plight, but how does that make sense in a universe where there is supposedly a deity who loves us? Would you allow the children you love to suffer painful deaths when you could cure them with nothing more than a snap of your fingers? If you withheld that cure, what kind of person would you be?

If there is no God, why is it wrong to kill young children if they're not wanted? If there is no God, why just kill the elderly who are non-productive? If there is no God, why not kill the mentally challenged?

 

[Loudmouth]

If there is no God, why is it wrong to kill young children if they're not wanted?

If there is a God, why is it wrong to kill those same children?

2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. (1 Sam. 15:2-3).​

What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion.

Are you really telling us that without christianity that you would go around killing children and not think twice about it? Really?

 

[justlookinla]

If there is a God, why is it wrong to kill those same children?

2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. (1 Sam. 15:2-3).​

What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion.

Are you really telling us that without christianity that you would go around killing children and not think twice about it? Really?

You're ok with killing young children? The elderly? The mentally challenged?

Where do you get your morality from anyway?

 

[Loudmouth]

You're ok with killing young children? The elderly? The mentally challenged?

Didn't you read my post?

"What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion."

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

The beauty of atheism is that we can face the true evil . . . us. The reason that children die of cancer is that "stuff" happens, especially in a universe that could care less about our existence.

However, if there is a God, then why are 2 year old children dying of painful cancers? It makes sense in a universe that could care less about our plight, but how does that make sense in a universe where there is supposedly a deity who loves us? Would you allow the children you love to suffer painful deaths when you could cure them with nothing more than a snap of your fingers? If you withheld that cure, what kind of person would you be?

Thanks for your stimulating reply. I have a short answer, but will reflect upon this and reply in the morning (or later tonight).

 

[justlookinla]

Didn't you read my post?

"What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion."

Did you read my question?

"Where do you get your morality from anyway?"

 

[Loudmouth]

Did you read my question?

"Where do you get your morality from anyway?"

Did you read my answer?

"What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion."

I get my morality from my ability to empathize with others, and in understanding how my actions can hurt or harm others. If I don't like to be hurt or harmed, then it is logical that I should not hurt or harm others.

 

[justlookinla]

Did you read my answer?

"What makes it wrong is our ability to use empathy to determine what causes pain in others, and how our actions cause that pain. It has zero to do with religion."

I get my morality from my ability to empathize with others, and in understanding how my actions can hurt or harm others. If I don't like to be hurt or harmed, then it is logical that I should not hurt or harm others.

You've simply described your morality, not the source of your morality. Would it be produced by your DNA or something else?

 

[crjmurray]

You've simply described your morality, not the source of your morality. Would it be produced by your DNA or something else?

How is that not a source of morality?

 

[Loudmouth]

You've simply described your morality, not the source of your morality. Would it be produced by your DNA or something else?

I stated quite clearly that the ability to use empathy and reason is the source of morality.

Are you a sociopath that is incapable of empathy?