It seems many of a more lawful mind are determined to tell believers wilfull sin is somehow different and that we can be sinless. not sure how that works.
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can someone please tell me when sin becomes willfull sin?
- Thread starter thepromiseofgrace
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ToBeBlessed
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My understanding, from reading the posts of some very precious brothers and sisters who have added the word 'willingly' to define one sin vs. another sin is that if you know in advance that what you may do, may be a sin and you still do it you have willingly sinned. If you have no idea that what you may do, may be a sin then you were never aware that it was a sin, so when you commit that sin you have no idea it is a sin. Meaning that you didn't sin because you didn't think you were sinning. My head hurts now.
It's a false reality.
God has pretty clearly defined what a sin is, but this is the work around if you want to say that you don't sin at all in your life.
Now that people have convinced themselves that they are able to live a life without sinning, they say that people who do admit that they sin are willful sinners because they haven't taken the steps to live a sin free life.
It's a terrible belief in that it can make many people very judgmental.http://www.christianforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
It's a false reality.
God has pretty clearly defined what a sin is, but this is the work around if you want to say that you don't sin at all in your life.
Now that people have convinced themselves that they are able to live a life without sinning, they say that people who do admit that they sin are willful sinners because they haven't taken the steps to live a sin free life.
It's a terrible belief in that it can make many people very judgmental.http://www.christianforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
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T
ToBeBlessed
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I've heard people say that if they think or feel a negative thought or feeling that if they strike it down in a certain number of seconds, it doesn't count as a sin.
I find this hard to believe though because it is pretty cut and dry in the Word what is a sin.
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BryanW92
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It is more than just rebellion. It is literally "missing the mark". Whether you try to hit the bullseye or not, it doesn't matter if you miss. The legalists who believe that we can stop sinning always try to draw this line between sin and "willful" sin (i.e. missing the bullseye and trying to miss the bullseye).
It doesn't matter. A miss is a miss. Both carry the same punishment and both are covered by the same grace.
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Yes, sinning is missing the mark.
What is the definition of sin (missing the mark)?
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4. Just ONE transgression/sin makes you guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10. Just ONE transgression is missing the mark.
Unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Christians do not miss these marks because we're not under the jurisdiction of the law, for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:90) thus we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law, Rom 8:33.
Christians cannot be charged with sin/unrighteousness, as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
As long as we continue to believe on Jesus, then our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and thus we are not missing the mark/sinning. This is not saying we are physically perfect in behavior/lifestyle. Instead it refers to our position in Christ, as believers. It's Christ's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness that covers us.
So how does one sin willfully?
They reject Christ, falling from grace.
And how does one fall from grace?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Thus we see in Heb 10:26 that the willful sin refers to those who had truly accepted Jesus as Lord (as described in Heb 6:4-6), but then turned back to works of the law as proof of justification.
Heb 10:26
For if we sin willfully (turning back to the law thus making yourself a sinner again) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (John 3:16), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
As confirmation of this willfully making yourself a sinner, see Gal 2:18.
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner.
Any true Christian who turns back to the law, determining righteousness by works, such make themselves a sinner, willfully.
Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
It is those who were truly Christians (as described in Heb 6:4-6) who reject Christ by turning back to the law, or even mixing works of the law with grace, who are the willful sinners that Heb 10:26 speaks of.
What is the definition of sin (missing the mark)?
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4. Just ONE transgression/sin makes you guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10. Just ONE transgression is missing the mark.
Unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Christians do not miss these marks because we're not under the jurisdiction of the law, for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:90) thus we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law, Rom 8:33.
Christians cannot be charged with sin/unrighteousness, as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
As long as we continue to believe on Jesus, then our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3) and thus we are not missing the mark/sinning. This is not saying we are physically perfect in behavior/lifestyle. Instead it refers to our position in Christ, as believers. It's Christ's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness that covers us.
So how does one sin willfully?
They reject Christ, falling from grace.
And how does one fall from grace?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Thus we see in Heb 10:26 that the willful sin refers to those who had truly accepted Jesus as Lord (as described in Heb 6:4-6), but then turned back to works of the law as proof of justification.
Heb 10:26
For if we sin willfully (turning back to the law thus making yourself a sinner again) after we have received the knowledge of the truth (John 3:16), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
As confirmation of this willfully making yourself a sinner, see Gal 2:18.
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner.
Any true Christian who turns back to the law, determining righteousness by works, such make themselves a sinner, willfully.
Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
It is those who were truly Christians (as described in Heb 6:4-6) who reject Christ by turning back to the law, or even mixing works of the law with grace, who are the willful sinners that Heb 10:26 speaks of.
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sin leads to death and the fulfillment of the law was necessary by Jesus, so we are no longer under law , which was called the ministry of death but the new covenant is even more glorious than the one that has faded.
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dragongunner
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Different types of sin.
Transgression refers to presumptuous sin. It means to choose to intentionally disobey; willful trespassing. Samson intentionally broke his Nazirite vow by touching a dead lion (Numbers 6:15; Judges 14:89) and allowing his hair to be cut (Judges 16:17); in doing so he was committing a transgression. David was referring to this kind of sin when he wrote, Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered (Psalm 32:1). When we knowingly run a stop sign, tell a lie, or blatantly disregard an authority, we are transgressing.
Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means premeditated choice, continuing without repentance. Davids sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:34; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At mornings light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it. In Davids psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:2).
Presumptuous sin is also intentional willful. It is doing something boldly, brazenly, audaciously, arrogantly, rebelliously, defiantly. I believe it is written the because of Presumptous sin the children of Israel could not enter into the promised Land.
Transgression refers to presumptuous sin. It means to choose to intentionally disobey; willful trespassing. Samson intentionally broke his Nazirite vow by touching a dead lion (Numbers 6:15; Judges 14:89) and allowing his hair to be cut (Judges 16:17); in doing so he was committing a transgression. David was referring to this kind of sin when he wrote, Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered (Psalm 32:1). When we knowingly run a stop sign, tell a lie, or blatantly disregard an authority, we are transgressing.
Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means premeditated choice, continuing without repentance. Davids sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:34; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At mornings light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it. In Davids psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:2).
Presumptuous sin is also intentional willful. It is doing something boldly, brazenly, audaciously, arrogantly, rebelliously, defiantly. I believe it is written the because of Presumptous sin the children of Israel could not enter into the promised Land.
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Messy
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No except when you Did That, Repented, were set free, mature believer and then go back to the world again. God Warned me with hell.
1 John 5:16
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
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hebrews cannot mean that though can it, i think hebrews is warning about going back in to law after knowing Grace. the reason why i cannot see it as unpardoonable, the bible tells us there is only one unpardonable sin.
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ToBeBlessed
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Originally Posted by thepromiseofgrace
I think your supporting thepromiseofgrace 's argument here.
God deosn't have to have the Son of God recrucified and put Him to open shame.
It is speaking of someone thinking that that would need to happen. We all know that does not need to happen.
Christ died once for all sin. Past, present, future. The Word states that and so it is obvious that the person who WOULD think that Christ would need to be re-crucified is incorrect, IMHO.
is either unforgivable by God?
I think your supporting thepromiseofgrace 's argument here.
God deosn't have to have the Son of God recrucified and put Him to open shame.
It is speaking of someone thinking that that would need to happen. We all know that does not need to happen.
Christ died once for all sin. Past, present, future. The Word states that and so it is obvious that the person who WOULD think that Christ would need to be re-crucified is incorrect, IMHO.
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ToBeBlessed
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dragongunner Different types of sin.
Transgression refers to presumptuous sin. It means to choose to intentionally disobey; willful trespassing. Samson intentionally broke his Nazirite vow by touching a dead lion (Numbers 6:15; Judges 14:89) and allowing his hair to be cut (Judges 16:17); in doing so he was committing a transgression. David was referring to this kind of sin when he wrote, Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered (Psalm 32:1). When we knowingly run a stop sign, tell a lie, or blatantly disregard an authority, we are transgressing.
Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means premeditated choice, continuing without repentance. Davids sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:34; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At mornings light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it. In Davids psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:2).
Presumptuous sin is also intentional willful. It is doing something boldly, brazenly, audaciously, arrogantly, rebelliously, defiantly. I believe it is written the because of Presumptous sin the children of Israel could not enter into the promised Land.
____________________________________________
Response to the post above the line.
I don't believe that there are 'different types of sin' in how you worded it. Sin is not spoken about like that. The verbage used is 'to sin willfully'.
The word willfully clarifies the motivation of the sin, not that there is any word with any meaning like to 'willfully sin'.
The Word does not speak like that. That is not how the Lord shows us sin. The two are not a compound word that are related and belong together. No. No. No.
Sin, is sin.
It is not that sin changes, but that OUR motivation and why we 'sin' changes.
The argument that is very popular lately is that there are all these different types of sin.
Like 'willful' sin, 'unrepentant 'sin' and so on.....
Like they are all the different flavors of sin.
THis is NOT SO at all. Sin is black and white.
It is EITHER a sin or it is NOT a sin. Black or white. One or the other. There are no classifications for sin in the way that God views sin. God is holy. Holy is NO sin. We are NOT holy. We sin. Cut and dry. Period.
Now, our MOTIVATIONS when we sin are what the issue is. Not the word sin. Putting the two words together has mislead a bunch of people who do not know better or who do know better, but choose to for convenience sake.
So, unrepentant is what we are when we sin. Unrepentant sin is not a compound word. Willful sin is not either.
The whole idea is so flawed that it is crystal clear.
People need to accept that when they sin. They have sinned.
THen they need to as Step 2, examine their motivation before the Lord.
Let's get real in this conversation and separate the two. Then we are speaking how the Lord speaks to us in His Word. Misrepresenting it as not being a sin if it is non-willful sin is not accurate.
A sin is a sin, is a sin, is a sin.
Transgression refers to presumptuous sin. It means to choose to intentionally disobey; willful trespassing. Samson intentionally broke his Nazirite vow by touching a dead lion (Numbers 6:15; Judges 14:89) and allowing his hair to be cut (Judges 16:17); in doing so he was committing a transgression. David was referring to this kind of sin when he wrote, Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered (Psalm 32:1). When we knowingly run a stop sign, tell a lie, or blatantly disregard an authority, we are transgressing.
Iniquity is more deeply rooted. Iniquity means premeditated choice, continuing without repentance. Davids sin with Bathsheba that led to the killing of her husband, Uriah, was iniquity (2 Samuel 11:34; 2 Samuel 12:9). Micah 2:1 says, Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds! At mornings light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it. In Davids psalm of repentance, he cries out to God, saying, Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:2).
Presumptuous sin is also intentional willful. It is doing something boldly, brazenly, audaciously, arrogantly, rebelliously, defiantly. I believe it is written the because of Presumptous sin the children of Israel could not enter into the promised Land.
____________________________________________
Response to the post above the line.
I don't believe that there are 'different types of sin' in how you worded it. Sin is not spoken about like that. The verbage used is 'to sin willfully'.
The word willfully clarifies the motivation of the sin, not that there is any word with any meaning like to 'willfully sin'.
The Word does not speak like that. That is not how the Lord shows us sin. The two are not a compound word that are related and belong together. No. No. No.
Sin, is sin.
It is not that sin changes, but that OUR motivation and why we 'sin' changes.
The argument that is very popular lately is that there are all these different types of sin.
Like 'willful' sin, 'unrepentant 'sin' and so on.....
Like they are all the different flavors of sin.
THis is NOT SO at all. Sin is black and white.
It is EITHER a sin or it is NOT a sin. Black or white. One or the other. There are no classifications for sin in the way that God views sin. God is holy. Holy is NO sin. We are NOT holy. We sin. Cut and dry. Period.
Now, our MOTIVATIONS when we sin are what the issue is. Not the word sin. Putting the two words together has mislead a bunch of people who do not know better or who do know better, but choose to for convenience sake.
So, unrepentant is what we are when we sin. Unrepentant sin is not a compound word. Willful sin is not either.
The whole idea is so flawed that it is crystal clear.
People need to accept that when they sin. They have sinned.
THen they need to as Step 2, examine their motivation before the Lord.
Let's get real in this conversation and separate the two. Then we are speaking how the Lord speaks to us in His Word. Misrepresenting it as not being a sin if it is non-willful sin is not accurate.
A sin is a sin, is a sin, is a sin.
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ToBeBlessed
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The system is duplicating posts. There must be database issues. Sorry abt. that.
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TPOG ,If one lives in the mind set of unforgivable sin then faith of grace is moot in Jesus correct? One lives in continuous condemnation in the mind. I see this type of vessel at church all the time. How is innocents lost? You have seen the post of the illiterate saved believer that functions on love not knowledge of sin for they can not read. Knowledge to apply to self is law or another term is physicality alone with no concept of love. Like reading comprehension. Lets use a mathematics text read in knowledge without love as the example. We apply knowledge gained from text with no love of the text to produce a physical outcome desired in correctness.
If one approaches the Word under , reading comprehension alone, law applies to these individuals for they look for righteousness in "what it looks like" just like the mathematical text so desired result of the flesh can be correct. A lot of these individuals apply what is read to self and a "look" of righteousness now manifests too others around them, while in the mind of the one under the mask of law/fear (or knowledge gained to application), they are Spiritually dead. One here described judgment applied to another as the end result of a law follower = Pride in self in "I don't do this, it is evil, so you should not do it either, it is bad". This is looking for sin to justify self. No perfecting & understanding in love. These individuals live in the false understanding of Fear because Fear was comprehended in the physical, like the mathematics text. Looking for the loopholes to avoid punishment and apply knowledge of sin to self and others. 1 john 4:18 ignored.
Innocents is a major manifestation of the Baptism/Justification/Holy Spirit when the Spirit is opened to the vessel who believes upon Jesus sent by the Father. One feels (manifests) like the child again reborn to hopeth all things. John 13 :4-18 made manifest in washing the heart/mind of sin, however the parable has no meaning to transfer in concept/love/spirit if physical comprehension is all the reader is getting out of scripture which manifests in law/fear. Mystery is the end result. The baptism visited upon the vessel is Jesus in an aspect of the Trinity. Holy Spirit, for we claimed love as the savior which is God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. NT is the guide (mathematical text) and love of the NT that it is God/Truth applied to the NT is pre requisite that we the undeserved chosen of the Baptism (life experience of the living God) to visit or revisit the NT and love it for it is Gods Words then 1Corinthians 13:6 is manifested in the believer of Charity/love/God/truth/NT/Jesus/Holy Spirit are all the same in concept and applied to knowledge, deeds, manifestation, self, others, faith that God judges sin, not us.
So, in love which is God/Jesus/Holy Spirit how can I condemn/judge self and especially another if self is known in the Baptism of Grace where innocents was once again acquired ? God/Jesus/Holy Spirit gives grace to the sinner to overcome sin. Faith by this vessel must be applied to trust in God that He will put a sinner/unbeliever or a believer temporarily lost in deception in this ones path and ask why does joy radiate in the hope inside? Darkness seeking the light of the fruits of the Spirit.
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the creator of Galatians 5:22 - 23. For this one, some research had to be done in why do I not forgive self ? In retrospect the answer is easy but for the sufferer it alludes in straddling the fence of law and concept of accepting love from our God which = poor in Spirit/Faith/Trust that Abba forgets sin and I on my own does not. So a true love of self like God sees me is quenching the Spirit/hope/Joy/faith/trust inside. Further study is the vessel/humanity. This is reiteration of posts of past...Love vs anything else or negativity stated by TPOG a human can only grasp one and in pride we ignore it in snatching the Godhead away. Love or Deception. In love comes reciprocation.
In hopes this edifies
in love/God vs willful sin.
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