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is a virgin birth posible?

AV1611VET

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The difference being, of course, that Joseph got evidence and was satisfied with it.

Of course, his evidence wall all just a dream, but it was good enough for him.

I'd love to see how modern-day scientists would have acted if they were in Joseph's position.

Or the looks on their faces, had they been in the disciples' shoes when Jesus came walking out on the water.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'd love to see how modern-day scientists would have acted if they were in Joseph's position.

I'd love to see how you'd have acted.

Or the looks on their faces, had they been in the disciples' shoes when Jesus came walking out on the water.

Chances are, if they were in the disciples' shoes, they'd already seen plenty...
 
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AV1611VET

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Chances are, if they were in the disciples' shoes, they'd already seen plenty...

That's true.

They'd probably be so full of mass confusion by everything they saw, they would be in a fetal position on the deck, begging to return to the 21st century.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Is a virgin birth possible? If so how is it possible?

You need to define "possible".

Parthenogenesis happens at varying levels of frequency in the animal kingdom. But not among mammals, and that means not among humans.

In theory parthenogenesis could happen, but would require a very bizarre set of factors, and the resulting offspring would be female (a male could not be produced in such a fashion). Effectively--as I understand it--the offspring would be a clone of the mother in a theoretical parthogenic human birth.

So from a natural vantage point, no, the virgin birth of Jesus violates all known biology; and from a biological perspective makes the virgin birth impossible.

But the Christian belief in the virgin birth doesn't involve a biological anomaly; but a specifically orchestrated divine event. A male child was conceived in Mary's womb without a biological contributor. Something that violates everything we know about the natural world and should, on all accounts, be impossible. So whether it is possible--from the vantage point of science--is a non-issue. No it isn't possible, and yet Christians confess it happened. That's the nature of faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Had Jesus been born from the seed of Joseph, Jesus would have acquired the sin nature that all mankind was born with.

I see this argument a lot. But it doesn't make any sense to me.

Much like the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary doesn't make much sense to me.

The two actually seem to fit together nicely; it would make sense that if Jesus was the natural offspring of Joseph that this would have been an issue if, and only if, Mary had been conceived and born without the stain of original sin by a special grace of God.

However, if one regards Mary to have been as much an ordinary sinner as you or I, then Joseph is irrelevant; Jesus was still conceived and born of a sinful parent and thus would have "contracted" original sin in the same way as if Joseph had been the natural father of Jesus.

I don't believe in the immaculate conception of Mary because I think it is basically superfluous. So the theory goes Mary, by a special grace of God, was preserved from the stain of original sin in order that she could serve as a pure vessel for the Incarnate Word. But at best this seems arbitrary--if God can preserve Mary specially from the stain of original sin then certainly He can do this just for Christ. And as such regardless of whether Jesus was virgin born or conceived with Joseph's help He could remain the sinless Son of God, Incarnate Word, Lord, Savior (etc).

The only way your argument could work is in the assumption that either

A) Sin is passed through sperm. And that's weird.
and/or
B) Mary was conceived immaculately.

I would consider the first option to be silly; and the second to be arbitrary and superfluous.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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However, if one regards Mary to have been as much an ordinary sinner as you or I, then Joseph is irrelevant; Jesus was still conceived and born of a sinful parent and thus would have "contracted" original sin in the same way as if Joseph had been the natural father of Jesus.
According to the Bible, sin resides in the flesh.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sin cannot enter Heaven, therefore the flesh cannot either.

This is why we are are going to get a new body.

The sin nature is passed on via the father.

That's why, in the Protevangelum, the Bible mentions the seed of the woman, not the seed of the man.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception either.

Else Mary would have thrown the first stone at the woman caught in adultery.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
 
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TLK Valentine

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That's true.

They'd probably be so full of mass confusion by everything they saw, they would be in a fetal position on the deck, begging to return to the 21st century.

Which would be exactly where some religious huckster would need them in order to convince them of all sorts of nonsense.
 
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TLK Valentine

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According to the Bible, sin resides in the flesh.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Paul clearly had his own personal agenda against "the flesh" -- I suspect he had some... closeted... issues of his own to work through.

Sin cannot enter Heaven, therefore the flesh cannot either.

What a shame....

Song of Solomon 7:1-7 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman.
Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.
Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.
Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus.
Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries.
How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights!
This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.
 
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ViaCrucis

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According to the Bible, sin resides in the flesh.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sin cannot enter Heaven, therefore the flesh cannot either.

This is why we are are going to get a new body.

The sin nature is passed on via the father.

That's why, in the Protevangelum, the Bible mentions the seed of the woman, not the seed of the man.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception either.

Else Mary would have thrown the first stone at the woman caught in adultery.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The ideas you are espousing here vis-a-vis sin and the flesh are rather heretical.

The orthodox doctrine is that the body is raised up, you may wish to take a gander at 1 Corinthians ch. 15, Philippians 3:21, and Romans 8:11--just for starters.

Christians look forward to the resurrection of the body, not an escape from the body into an ethereal ever-land in the sky.

And if you want to understand St. Paul's use of the word "sarx" to refer to our sinful, mortal state then you should bother to understand how he understands the complex interplay between sin and mortality. The flesh is sinful not on account of being flesh, but on account of sin; further to suggest that it is the body alone that is sinful, and not the soul/mind/will also, is explicit heresy. It is the whole man that is broken and in need of redemption; and it is for the whole man that God became man to restore that which was broken, mending it, healing it, restoring it to God and granting to us as a promise that we, too, shall be made even as Christ was--raised up and glorified. That we should share in the restoration of all things when God makes all things new.

Your theology here is Gnosticism, not orthodox Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AV1611VET

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Christians look forward to the resurrection of the body, not an escape from the body into an ethereal ever-land in the sky.
Oh please ... :doh:

Is this your idea of the Rapture?
Christians look forward to the resurrection of the body,
Ya ... it's called our "blessed hope."

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
 
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ViaCrucis

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Oh please ... :doh:

Is this your idea of the Rapture?

Ya ... it's called our "blessed hope."

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I'm not a Dispensationalist, "the rapture"--Christians being beamed up into heaven--simply isn't part of my theology; it's simply not part of normative Christian teaching.

What Christians have instead believed, throughout history, is in the resurrection of the dead. That at Christ's parousia the dead shall be raised, bodily. This is, by the way, what St. Paul is talking about in 1 Thessalonians 4 when He speaks of Christ's coming (parousia) and the dead rising, and those alive and remain caught together to meet the returning Christ in the air. But the emphasis is explicit: Christ's return, the resurrection of the dead; it is rather the opposite of the Dispensationalist position that Jesus beams up Christians into heaven (something Scripture simply never mentions, and which Christians have never believed up until the last two hundred or so years).

So no, this isn't my idea of "the rapture". It's the Christian teaching on the resurrection of the dead. As is confessed,

"We believe ... in the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting in the age to come. Amen."

It's one of the most basic teachings of the Christian religion, mentioned time and again throughout the Scriptures themselves, ...

---------------------------------------------------

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." - John 4:28-29

"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise Him up on the last day." - John 6:39-40

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

"And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by His power." - 1 Corinthians 6:14

"If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." - Romans 8:11

"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that He raised Christ, whom He did no traise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.

... But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after defeating every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be defeated is death.

... So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a Spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is also a Spiritual body.

... Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be transformed, in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the final trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised imperishable, and we shall be transformed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

'Death is swallowed up in victory.'
'O Death, where is your victory?
O Death, where is your sting?'
" - 1 Corinthians ch. 15

"Your dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is the dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead." - Isaiah 26:19

"[Christ] who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself." - Philippians 3:21

--------------------------------------

...confessed and believed by every single one of the ancient fathers of the Church, contained in Creeds, and the historic confessions of the faith. It is what all Christians, throughout history and around the world, believe. It is what has always been believed. From St. Paul to St. Ignatius to St. Augustine to Martin Luther, John Wesley; Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Orthodox, Anglicans, everyone.

The doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is fundamental to the Christian religion. Without the doctrine of resurrection there is no Christian religion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm not a Dispensationalist, "the rapture"--Christians being beamed up into heaven--simply isn't part of my theology; it's simply not part of normative Christian teaching.
No kidding?

What's this 'beamed into Heaven' stuff?

FYI, at the Rapture we will meet Christ in the air (not Heaven) to be judged for things done in our flesh, where our sin nature resides.

While the Tribulation is going on down on Earth, we are off the earth at what is called the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Following that, we will be given a new body, new name, and a white robe.

Later, after the Tribulation and the Millennial Reign of Christ, everyone else will be raptured from their graves and the lost will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment, which will not take place in Heaven.

Sin cannot enter into [Third] Heaven.

That's why when Paul, who was beaten to death at Lystra (Acts 14), said in 2 Corinthians ...

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 
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TLK Valentine

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No kidding?

What's this 'beamed into Heaven' stuff?

FYI, at the Rapture we will meet Christ in the air (not Heaven) to be judged for things done in our flesh, where our sin nature resides.

While the Tribulation is going on down on Earth, we are off the earth at what is called the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So, not in heaven, just in outer space somewhere.

Oh, goody -- for a moment, I thought this was going to be silly...
 
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ViaCrucis

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No kidding?

What's this 'beamed into Heaven' stuff?

FYI, at the Rapture we will meet Christ in the air (not Heaven) to be judged for things done in our flesh, where our sin nature resides.

While the Tribulation is going on down on Earth, we are off the earth at what is called the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Following that, we will be given a new body, new name, and a white robe.

Later, after the Tribulation and the Millennial Reign of Christ, everyone else will be raptured from their graves and the lost will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment, which will not take place in Heaven.

Sin cannot enter into [Third] Heaven.

Like I said I'm not a Dispensationalist. So your talk about "raptures" and "tribulations" don't fit anywhere in my belief system. I adhere to the historic Christian belief that Christ will come again, and that there will be a resurrection of the dead.

People being beamed upward to somewhere else, a seven year tribulation, etc; all that stuff found in the "Left Behind" books? Yeah that's not part of normal Christianity. And most Christians don't believe any of that--and never have. It's the product that ultimately comes from a single mind, an ex Church of Ireland priest named John Nelson Darby. Darby's bizarre views eventually spread to the United States through the work of people such as Dwight L. Moody, and Cyrus Scofield; Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible made converts of people in the pews, Moody's "Bible Institute" made converts of potential clergy.

But at no point has it ever been normative Christian teaching. It's a 19th century innovation that is made popular through an industry of music, media, and books that pushes Dispensationalism hard.

That's why when Paul, who was beaten to death at Lystra (Acts 14), said in 2 Corinthians ...

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, ( whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The only thing Paul is saying here is that he knew a man (maybe himself) that had a vision. That's it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AV1611VET

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Like I said I'm not a Dispensationalist.
Well, I am.

And I'm not going to sit here and argue basic doctrine with a Lutheran preterist.

And if I said what I thought of that guy in your avatar, I'd be moderated.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I'd love to see how modern-day scientists would have acted if they were in Joseph's position.

Or the looks on their faces, had they been in the disciples' shoes when Jesus came walking out on the water.

Do you think Jesus' DNA would have been interesting?

Or would the God powers have been outside of the DNA?
 
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ThinkForYourself

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As my pastor once pointed out, you guys' attitude of "show me evidence" is nothing new. ...

Does that surprise you?

That's like a fisherman who claims he has caught a record setting fish, but doesn't have the fish, or even a picture of the fish. Then he claims he caught another record breaker, but still no fish or pictures. And it happens again and again and again and again and again and again and ....

Don't you think it's reasonable to expect some evidence before believing this fisherman has caught even one record breaking fish?
 
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