Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Archaeopteryx]

But the event you anticipate and the plan you make are entirely separate. You anticipate a hurricane, your plan is to stay at home. Did you cause the hurricane to occur in order to have the plan to stay at home? Nonsense! So it is nonsense that you say God caused the Fall so that He can have the plan to save mankind!

You forget one hugely important difference: you and I are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. God didn't merely anticipate the Fall and plan for that eventuality, should it arise. He knew that it would happen. He created a situation that he knew would lead to a fallen world.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You forget one hugely important difference: you and I are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. God didn't merely anticipate the Fall and plan for that eventuality, should it arise. He knew that it would happen. He created a situation that he knew would lead to a fallen world.

That does not change the fact that His foreknowledge has nothing to do with causality. If He is omnipotent, why can't He let go of His omnipotence and simply let things run its course by itself? He certainly can, and that's what He did in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, it is not an issue of causality, it is an issue of you wanting to decide for God what He should or should not do. Lol

And for that matter, all your ranting at me about why God does this and that is meaningless, I am not God.

 

[Messy]

?

How do I taste god? And what flavours does he come in?

Get to know Him.

 

[Eudaimonist]

And what flavours does he come in?

God comes in Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Baha'i, Confucian, Sikh, Zoroastrian, and many other flavors, though the retro polytheistic flavors are becoming more popular once again. Take your pick. Some people even mix and match for a unique flavor combo.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Is turning evil things around into good outcomes not a way of doing good? Or is your definition of doing good too narrow to encompass that?

Is not doing evil also not a way of doing good, arguably a better way?

Yeah, you made it sound cultish. I never said we do not value our physical life, I said we are not troubled by physical death, it is a freeing thought. That is a world of difference from your attempt to paint it as cultish.

Why value your physical life if there is one infinitely better awaiting you?

Please don't read my sentence halfway, because I stated the intentions already.

And I asked for his intentions for Job's family specifically. It seems that their only purpose in life is to provide a character-building lesson for Job.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That does not change the fact that His foreknowledge has nothing to do with causality. If He is omnipotent, why can't He let go of His omnipotence and simply let things run its course by itself? He certainly can, and that's what He did in the Garden of Eden. Therefore, it is not an issue of causality, it is an issue of you wanting to decide for God what He should or should not do. Lol

He can "let it run its course," but he's not ignorant of the outcome. He set it up on that course to begin with, knowing exactly how it would unfold.

And for that matter, all your ranting at me about why God does this and that is meaningless, I am not God.

Clearly. But you do make claims about him.

 

[Messy]

You forget one hugely important difference: you and I are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. God didn't merely anticipate the Fall and plan for that eventuality, should it arise. He knew that it would happen. He created a situation that he knew would lead to a fallen world.

He created a situation with reconciliation possible and He made man to eventually overcome satan and evil. Perfect is not That you can't even say no to the devil and He has to be kept away from you, but That you are enabled to overcome him and sin and not be a slave from him.
Jesus wasn't perfect as a human although He was God and without sin. He was made perfect through suffering.

 

[Cearbhall]

... or not:

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil ... And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

So the evil itself is a flaw. That's different than saying it's a flaw to have it be part of the universe.

 

[mkrist]

God does demand everyone's worship. Revelation says that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. I've been taught in church that one day, everyone will bow to Jesus, whether they want to or not, because they will see Him face to face and be brought to their knees.

 

[jacknife]

Lol? Knowledge of sin is in fact a part of knowledge of good and evil, we were therefore arguing about knowledge of good and evil indeed. Did you lose track of everything in a split second, or were you trying to shift goalposts?

well then you can guess what my next question is. if you agree god can give people knowledge. then why is knowledge of good and evil so diffrent from everything else that it becomes impossible for a being that has no rules to do so?

 

[thepromiseofgrace]

If God was omniscient and omnipotent, then he wouldn't have knowingly created a flawed creation. However, creation is obviously flawed, so one of the following must be true:

1. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omniscient (he could not see the results of his action), or
2. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omnipotent (he could not create a perfect creation, or he did not have the power to sustain perfection in his creation), or
3. God is omniscient and omnipotent but uncompassionate and unloving (towards his creation he originated, dooming many to hell which he foreknew).

What saith ye?

would like to know your definition of flawed, other than that are those the only three possibilities.

he could have produced a perfect race of robots, is that what he wanted, when he created in his image he created beings with thought, creativity, freedom of choice and will, if they are flaws perhaps all life is flawed.

 

[Messy]

well then you can guess what my next question is. if you agree god can give people knowledge. then why is knowledge of good and evil so diffrent from everything else that it becomes impossible for a being that has no rules to do so?

Maybe He could have given it to them If they chose to eat from the tree of Life instead, because If you know God you become like Him and by knowing How good He is you see something else is evil.
Watchman Nee:Spiritual Man Volume 1.

`We know how man's soul chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life. Yet is it not clear that God's will for Adam was to eat the fruit of the tree of life? Because before He forbade Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil and warned him that in the day he ate he should die (Gen. 2.17), He first commanded man to eat freely of every tree of -the garden and purposely mentioned the tree of life in the midst of the garden. Who can say that this is not so?

"The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" uplifts the human soul and suppresses the spirit. God does not forbid man to eat of this fruit merely to test man. He forbids it because He knows that by eating this fruit man's soul life will be so stimulated that his spirit life will be stifled. This means man will lose the true knowledge of God and thus be dead to Him. God's forbiddance shows God's love. The knowledge of good and evil in this world is itself evil. Such knowledge springs from the intellect of man's soul. It puffs up the soul life and consequently deflates the spirit life to the point of losing any knowledge of God, to the point of becoming as much as dead.

A great number of God's servants view this tree of life as God offering life to the world in His Son the Lord Jesus. This is eternal life, God's nature, His uncreated life. Hence, we have here two trees-one germinates spiritual life while the other develops soulish life. Man in his original state is neither sinful nor holy and righteous. He stands between the two. Either he can accept God's life, thus becoming a spiritual man and a partaker of divine nature; or he can inflate his created life into becoming soulish, consequently inflicting death on his spirit. God imparted a perfect balance to the three parts of man. Whenever one part is overdeveloped the others are afflicted.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Is not doing evil also not a way of doing good, arguably a better way?

Allowing something to run its course is a far cry from doing evil, its absurd to even try to link the two together.

Why value your physical life if there is one infinitely better awaiting you?

Because God has a purpose for us here? Are you trying to encourage a cultish thinking?

And I asked for his intentions for Job's family specifically. It seems that their only purpose in life is to provide a character-building lesson for Job.

Yeah, but you chew on that single point as though God had no other intentions other than character building. Salvation and eternal life was the biggest reason anyway.

Are the bolded words invisible to you?? Gosh.

 

[WoundedDeep]

He can "let it run its course," but he's not ignorant of the outcome. He set it up on that course to begin with, knowing exactly how it would unfold.

So? What is your point anyway? In the end, your point is nothing more than a pompous attempt to tell God what He should do. I am not God, why are you telling me these?

Clearly. But you do make claims about him.

And you are not making claims, even false accusations about Him?

 

[WoundedDeep]

God does demand everyone's worship. Revelation says that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. I've been taught in church that one day, everyone will bow to Jesus, whether they want to or not, because they will see Him face to face and be brought to their knees.

Bowing their knees to God is hardly worship in its true form. Jesus said those who worship the Father will worship Him in spirit and truth. How can people who rebel against Him worship Him in spirit and truth? No, they cannot. They will bow their knees because when the truth is revealed, they will have to admit that God is the highest authority, even if they have no love for Him. It is an acknowledgement of God's authority and righteousness, not worship.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Allowing something to run its course is a far cry from doing evil, its absurd to even try to link the two together.

You keep missing the point. It bears repeating: He can "let it run its course," but he's not ignorant of the outcome. He set it up on that course to begin with, knowing exactly how it would unfold.

Because God has a purpose for us here? Are you trying to encourage a cultish thinking?

What purpose is that?

Are the bolded words invisible to you?? Gosh.

I don't get it. The biggest reason Job's family was killed was for salvation and eternal life?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So? What is your point anyway? In the end, your point is nothing more than a pompous attempt to tell God what He should do. I am not God, why are you telling me these?

Because you're the one making claims about his nature, personality and intentions.

 

[WoundedDeep]

well then you can guess what my next question is. if you agree god can give people knowledge. then why is knowledge of good and evil so diffrent from everything else that it becomes impossible for a being that has no rules to do so?

Who are you referring to by saying "a being that has no rules to do so"?

 

[Messy]

I don't get it. The biggest reason Job's family was killed was for salvation and eternal life?

Who says God wanted That? I was taught He had to let satan because Job opened the door by Fear.

 

[WoundedDeep]

You keep missing the point. It bears repeating: He can "let it run its course," but he's not ignorant of the outcome. He set it up on that course to begin with, knowing exactly how it would unfold.

I did not miss your point, you are again on the verge of making pompous suggestions on what God should do. For that matter, God has already intervened in the natural course of events with a plan of salvation. It doesn't matter what you think about that.

What purpose is that?

Many purposes, why is it a concern to you if you are so eager to discredit Him?

I don't get it. The biggest reason Job's family was killed was for salvation and eternal life?

Salvation and eternal life is the outcome of the calamity. That calamity changed not only Job, but also his friends, and his wife and strengthened their faith.