Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, obeying, but they didn't do that.

So the only way to know him and have a relationship with him is to either obey or to suffer all manner of cruelties? That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship at all.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Is there no way of knowing him apart from suffering? What sort of sadist would design a system in which the only way to know them and form a relationship with them is to be subjected to all manner of cruelties?

Your flawed logic never fails to amaze me. I raised that point for a fellow Christian to contemplate the fact that God allows suffering not because He desires His people to suffer, but because He knows out of it can come goodness. Stop trying to detract my point with your false accusations against God, it is pretty rude imo.

Is there no other way to train character? Does all suffering train character?

It is a proven fact that out of adversity comes good character. I have yet to see the same conclusion drawn from a life of prosperity. Or do you have any idea in mind? If you don't, then you have no right to accuse God.

Doesn't this apply to God also? He abandoned Job to the cruelties of Satan whom he allowed to torment him, so I guess he was never his friend to begin with.

Did you even read the conclusion of the book of Job? God not only appeared to Job in an audible voice, He restituted everything Job lost many times over and gave him a long life. How is that abandonment of Job?

 

[Messy]

So he was sinful in the end?

No He never sinned, He just took our sins in His body and was 'made sin', but He Himself wasn't made sinful.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Eh, you clearly don't know what "jealous" means. First, God is jealous because He knows He made you therefore it is right that you should receive and reciprocate His love. How is that any indication of pride when you yourself also desire the same from the woman of your dreams?

If the woman of his dreams spurns him, is he allowed to torment her forever?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your flawed logic never fails to amaze me. I raised that point for a fellow Christian to contemplate the fact that God allows suffering not because He desires His people to suffer, but because He knows out of it can come goodness. Stop trying to detract my point with your false accusations against God, it is pretty rude imo.

I notice you didn't bother to address the question.

It is a proven fact that out of adversity comes good character. I have yet to see the same conclusion drawn from a life of prosperity. Or do you have any idea in mind? If you don't, then you have no right to accuse God.

I didn't suggest that adversity cannot build character, but asked whether all suffering necessarily builds character. Perhaps some forms of suffering contribute little to nothing to character development.

Did you even read the conclusion of the book of Job? God not only appeared to Job in an audible voice, He restituted everything Job lost many times over and gave him a long life. How is that abandonment of Job?

He restituted it all, meaning that he resurrected Job's slain family? Or were their deaths just a "character-building" exercise for Job? In what way did his family undergo character development in all this?

 

[WoundedDeep]

It's an inescapable conclusion, the fall of man is a direct consequence of adam and eve learning about good and evil, and God must have known that since he laid out the punishment.

If he wanted them to know good and evil, then it necessarily follows that he must have intended for the world to fall as it did. He played a direct role in it.

That is a flawed conclusion. God issued a clear directive in the beginning what the forbidden fruit does, so Adam and Eve could not have been totally ignorant of the consequences. In fact, if God wanted them to fall, He would not have given such a clear directive about that fruit. Clearly, His intention was not for them to fall, but He was aware of the possibility and prepared beforehand a salvation.

He did not play a direct role in the fall like you falsely claim. I do believe God has every power to give mankind knowledge of good and evil without the need of mankind's fall. The fall was a direct cause of satan's deception and the unbelief of mankind.

 

[Messy]

So the only way to know him and have a relationship with him is to either obey or to suffer all manner of cruelties? That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship at all.

If there was no devil it would be easier I think, but since he's there the only thing you have to obey is: keep away from him and sin.
It's like a parent that tells a kid not to take candy from a stranger and just obey. If you know the parent obeying isn't that hard. Some weirdo's tried to teach a kid this that was too innocent and kidnapped him. There is no other way with someone who's innocent and not innocent means that you sinned.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I notice you didn't bother to address the question.

Because your question arises out of false accusations and active detraction of what I intended with my point. I see no reason in answering those kind of questions formed solely based on an ingrained animosity against God.

He restituted it all, meaning that he resurrected Job's slain family? Or were their deaths just a "character-building" exercise for Job?

I do not know whether there was any resurrection. Job lost 7 sons and daughters, he got back 7 sons and daughters in the end. Job certainly knew from that ordeal that no matter what he does, he cannot protect his family from death. Only God can give life and resurrect those who died.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That is a flawed conclusion. God issued a clear directive in the beginning what the forbidden fruit does, so Adam and Eve could not have been totally ignorant of the consequences. In fact, if God wanted them to fall, He would not have given such a clear directive about that fruit.

If he didn't want them to fail he never should have placed the forbidden fruit within their reach in the first place. He already knew the outcome in advance.

Clearly, His intention was not for them to fall, but He was aware of the possibility and prepared beforehand a salvation.

He wasn't just aware of the possibility. He was aware of the outcome. That's what omniscience entails.

He did not play a direct role in the fall like you falsely claim.

He created Satan knowing that he would tempt Adam and Eve, created Adam and Eve knowing that they would interact with this creature, and placed the tree within their midst knowing that they would eat from it. That seems fairly direct. He wasn't a naive bystander.

 

[jacknife]

If there was no devil it would be easier I think, but since he's there the only thing you have to obey is: keep away from him and sin.
It's like a parent that tells a kid not to take candy from a stranger and just obey. If you know the parent obeying isn't that hard. Some weirdo's tried to teach a kid this that was too innocent and kidnapped him. There is no other way with someone who's innocent and not innocent means that you sinned.

why would an all powerful being not just remove the devil?

 

[Messy]

If he didn't want them to fail he never should have placed the forbidden fruit within their reach in the first place. He already knew the outcome in advance.

And then mankind would never have sinned? Satan didn't have a forbidden tree or a tempter, yet he sinned and could never be reconciled.
What if He threw him in a pit to torment him forever for all he would do to us? And we saw him and said: Hey what are you doing here? Oh I only wanted to be like God, but He's so bad, he tortures me forever for this.

 

[WoundedDeep]

I do agree that suffering keeps us humble and reliant on God and that prosperity can lead to pride. I'm not questioning the purpose or good that can come from suffering when it produces a deeper faith or helps us see the needs of others and teaches us compassion or perseverance. What I have trouble with is why does God withdraw in our darkest hours - like I mentioned with my friend who was dying and in my own life. I'v had times of depression and despair when I literally cried out to God - not to take away my difficulties, but to just give me His comfort - an awareness that He was there, by my side. And I often wonder about Job. Would he still have faith if he knew his whole ordeal was really a wager between God and Satan? And then when He asks God for an explanation, it seems God gets irritated by his questioning. It's not like Job just lost his position in society or his wealth. When those things were taken, he accepted it - God gives and He takes away. It wasn't until he lost his family that he fell into an ash heap and really began to mourn and despair and it only got worse the more he sought after God. Doesn't God promise that those who earnestly seek Him will find Him? It just seems that promises like this that God makes in His Word, aren't always kept by Him. How can I count on any of His promises if He doesn't consistently keep them?

God has never withdrawn from His people. He may have been quiet, or His presence may not have been felt by His people, but He was always there. Sometimes He does not appear to be close to test our reactions when we believe He was not there. Again, this is the test of the authenticity of faith. Will we behave only when we know He is with us? Or will we behave even when He is absent? I believe Job will still have faith even if he knows it was a wager, because he clearly loves God enough to be willing to give up the large wealth he had. If he knew satan was the cause of his suffering and that God allowed it to test his faith and humble him, he will love God even more.

I don't think God was irritated at all, Job wanted a hearing from God and a chance to plead his case and challenge God. God appeared to him in an audible voice and accepted his challenge. How many people in his times had the honour of having such an audience from God Himself? In fact, God boasted of Job as a righteous man who no one could surpass before satan. Clearly, God held Job in high esteem.

Those who seek Him will indeed find Him, but not always in the way or form they might expect. It is when we over rely on our own feelings, perceptions or understanding that we get disappointed that God does not meet our "idea" of finding Him. There are so many ways we can find God, through circumstances, through people, even through periods of complete silence and perceived absence of God.

 

[WoundedDeep]

If he didn't want them to fail he never should have placed the forbidden fruit within their reach in the first place. He already knew the outcome in advance.

He wasn't just aware of the possibility. He was aware of the outcome. That's what omniscience entails.

He created Satan knowing that he would tempt Adam and Eve, created Adam and Eve knowing that they would interact with this creature, and placed the tree within their midst knowing that they would eat from it. That seems fairly direct. He wasn't a naive bystander.

That proves nothing of your false statements about God. If the fall is the ONLY option that God provides, then yes, your statement will make sense, God is the direct cause since He provided no other options. But God clearly provided an alternative to the fall, that makes it absurd for anyone to say God directly caused the fall. The availability of different options exactly relieves God from being responsible, it instead puts responsibility on God's created beings based on their choices.

 

[Messy]

why would an all powerful being not just remove the devil?

That isn't possible, He can't let him cease to exist.

 

[jacknife]

That isn't possible, He can't let him cease to exist.

why?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

You have a flawed understanding of what perfection means. God created a perfect world where free will exist. Therefore, perfection does not mean inability for corruption, it simply means God has made His created beings completely capable of being sinless. Was satan capable of being a sinless angel when God made him? Yes. Was Adam and Eve capable of being sinless when God made them? Yes. But by their free will, they choose to sin.

Actually, I don't know perfection because I've never experienced it. As far as I know, perfection doesn't exist and I probably wouldn't recognize it if I did see it, considering you yourself would have to be perfect to recognize perfection. Otherwise, how would you know in your limited human understanding?

As I understand it, perfection means "without any flaws." That's about as good of a definition as I can think of for perfection. Is this world without flaws?

So my question remains... Where did Satan get the idea to rebel? Why would he choose to? Err things not perfect? If they were perfect, why go and screw it all up?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

why?

Because the story they're trying to sell wouldn't make any sense.

 

[jacknife]

Because the story they're trying to sell wouldn't make any sense.

maybe they will surprise us! (spoilers they wont)

 

[WoundedDeep]

why?

What do you mean by "removing the devil"? The Bible did say that eventually the devil will be put away (removed) in the lake of fire. Is that your idea of "removing the devil"?

 

[jacknife]

What do you mean by "removing the devil"? Did the Bible not say that eventually the devil will be put away (removed) in the lake of fire?

anyone who reads the bible will pick up that foresight isnt god's great strong point. that aside why wait? he could do it right now.