What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[Eudaimonist]

Not sure it would matter much.

Psychological need, will always trump logic, if it is strong enough.

It might help in some cases. I say yes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Loudmouth]

Even though Yahweh made this promise,

Men made that promise.

any person can look at Creation and believe it requires a Creator, and begin the search for Yahweh, without knowing the Bible or any other believer.

What evidence would lead them to this belief?

Or is it a matter of just believing really really hard that it is true no matter what the evidence shows?

 

[bhsmte]

It might help in some cases. I say yes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

In some cases yes, which is why I said it wouldn't matter much.

In the end, psychological need is tough to overcome with simple logic, if the need is strong enough.

 

[variant]

Not sure it would matter much.

Psychological need, will always trump logic, if it is strong enough.

If that were true no one would ever deconvert because of rationality.

I don't think that is true.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If that were true no one would ever deconvert because of rationality.

I don't think that is true.

All boils down to the person. I've know people who believe things for illogical reasons that continue to believe them even after they are shown why it's illogical. I get a lot of "Yes, I see why the "rules" say I'm wrong, but the rules of logic are man man made and not god's laws and blah blah handwave handwave..."

While I think logic classes should be mandatory, it's not going to catch everyone.

 

[variant]

All boils down to the person. I've know people who believe things for illogical reasons that continue to believe them even after they are shown why it's illogical. I get a lot of "Yes, I see why the "rules" say I'm wrong, but the rules of logic are man man made and not god's laws and blah blah handwave handwave..."

While I think logic classes should be mandatory, it's not going to catch everyone.

I think it would raise the general level of intellectual self awareness, which ultimately would reduce the experiences you are talking about.

 

[bhsmte]

If that were true no one would ever deconvert because of rationality.

I don't think that is true.

IMO, when people deconvert, it is not because they all of a sudden started to use logic, it is more because the psychological need they had to ignore logic, has waned and they then become more aware of why they can no longer reconcile the belief they had, with reality.

When they believed, they likely knew this logic existed, they just denied the same, because the psychological need was strong enough to create defense mechanisms; denial, confirmation bias, selective reasoning.

IMO, if you present sound logic to someone with a strong enough psychological need to believe something, it will not make a bit of difference, until that psychological need changes.

 

[bhsmte]

All boils down to the person. I've know people who believe things for illogical reasons that continue to believe them even after they are shown why it's illogical. I get a lot of "Yes, I see why the "rules" say I'm wrong, but the rules of logic are man man made and not god's laws and blah blah handwave handwave..."

While I think logic classes should be mandatory, it's not going to catch everyone.

Logic may help people on the fence, but if they have already climbed over the fence, logic won't help them climb back over, until the psychological need that caused them to climb over in the first place, changes.

 

[variant]

IMO, if you present sound logic to someone with a strong enough psychological need to believe something, it will not make a bit of difference, until that psychological need changes.

While I am sure that people can come up with any excuse to hide behind, I also think that people are sometimes honest with themselves about their psychological needs, why they believe in things, and reasoning can get them to the point where they will look at the issue.

 

[Colter]

If you're referring to "jerk", that was what my co-workers called you, not me. That was completely unprompted by me.

And I'm not sure why you would call me "Mr tolerence", since you don't know me, unless it's some sort of stereotype you have conjured in your head that you use when dealing with unbelievers.



It's been very clear that what I'm interested in is how you deal with other Christians who find your behavior abhorrent. You've already implied that you don't care what atheists think of you, which in and of itself doesn't make sense given that A) An atheist on the fence could be swayed by a Christian that doesn't act like you do, and B) You could be damaging to Christians on the fence.

So, do you care what other Christians think of you or not? What would you say to my co-workers (I added a third this morning) who think you're doing a disservice to your faith? What if it were people from your own church who were saying this?

Abhorrent? What post was abhorrent to you? What was I a jerk for? No, I don't know you nor do you know me, you take a snap-shot of my conversation with these characters and solicit opinions form what you called "devout" Christians at some office who then called me a jerk for defending the faith with Atheists? Jesus was bitterly hated for what he said no matter how nicely he said it, do you think Jesus sacred off the fence sitting atheists? Should we reword the bible so as not to hurt anyone's feelings because you have such a need to be liked? There is no what around it, the gospel is just going to make some people angry. They hated him without a cause.

You don't get it, some of these people here could have been raised in a community of saints yet they still would find something wrong with at least one of them.

 

[bhsmte]

While I am sure that people can come up with any excuse to hide behind, I also think that people are sometimes honest with themselves about their psychological needs, why they believe in things, and reasoning can get them to the point where they will look at the issue.

What you say supports my point.

If a person has a level of objective honesty with themselves, then their psychology is at a point, where they are open to acknowledging what they believe in may be wrong. Some people are not at this point.

 

[variant]

What you say supports my point.

If a person has a level of objective honesty with themselves, then their psychology is at a point, where they are open to acknowledging what they believe in may be wrong. Some people are not at this point.

I'm also saying that exposure to logic and reasoning is likely to help people be more honest with themselves.

It should open them to lines of thinking that they would not necessarily take on their own.

 

[bhsmte]

I'm also saying that exposure to logic and reasoning is likely to help people be more honest with themselves.

It should open them to lines of thinking that they would not necessarily take on their own.

I agree, with one caveat, if that person was "open" to acknowledging this logic.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Abhorrent? What post was abhorrent to you? What was I a jerk for? No, I don't know you nor do you know me, you take a snap-shot of my conversation with these characters and solicit opinions form what you called "devout" Christians at some office who then called me a jerk for defending the faith with Atheists? Jesus was bitterly hated for what he said no matter how nicely he said it, do you think Jesus sacred off the fence sitting atheists? Should we reword the bible so as not to hurt anyone's feelings because you have such a need to be liked? There is no what around it, the gospel is just going to make some people angry. They hated him without a cause.

You don't get it, some of these people here could have been raised in a community of saints yet they still would find something wrong with at least one of them.

Again, abhorrent wasn't my word, and neither was jerk, they were terms my co-workers used. And after seeing this post from you, they're telling me they're even more convinced. And rightfully offended at the use of quote marks around the word "devout". One suggested that you stop comparing yourself to Jesus.

Since it seems that you refuse to answer the question, I guess I'm left with assuming that you don't care what anyone, believer or non-believer thinks about your behavior.

Personally, I find it fascinating when a believer cares so little about how they present their opinion, especially in a public forum like this. You should realize that it makes a big difference to the person receiving it whether or not it's accepted.

 

[Colter]

Again, abhorrent wasn't my word, and neither was jerk, they were terms my co-workers used. And after this post from you, they're telling me they're even more convinced. And rightfully offended at the use of quote marks around the word "devout". One suggested that you stop comparing yourself to Jesus.

Since it seems that you refuse to answer the question, I guess I'm left with assuming that you don't care what anyone, believer or non-believer thinks about your behavior.

Personally, I find it fascinating when a believer cares so little about how they present their opinion, especially in a public forum like this. You should realize that it makes a big difference to the person receiving it whether or not it's accepted.

I have to say, this is the strangest interaction that I have ever had on the internet and I've been posting on religious forums since Al Gore invented it!

Here, since you are just a middleman then show your coworkers this:

Christianity’s Problem​

(2082.6) 195:9.1 Do not overlook the value of your spiritual heritage, the river of truth running down through the centuries, even to the barren times of a materialistic and secular age. In all your worthy efforts to rid yourselves of the superstitious creeds of past ages, make sure that you hold fast the eternal truth. But be patient! when the present superstition revolt is over, the truths of Jesus’ gospel will persist gloriously to illuminate a new and better way.

(2082.7) 195:9.2 But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

(2082.8) 195:9.3 The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

(2082.9) 195:9.4 Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings. If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus’ religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world.

(2083.1) 195:9.5 The modern age will refuse to accept a religion which is inconsistent with facts and out of harmony with its highest conceptions of truth, beauty, and goodness. The hour is striking for a rediscovery of the true and original foundations of present-day distorted and compromised Christianity — the real life and teachings of Jesus.

(2083.2) 195:9.6 Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

(2083.3) 195:9.7 Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

(2083.4) 195:9.8 The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men’s souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man’s soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

(2083.5) 195:9.9 Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

(2083.6) 195:9.10 Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

(2083.7) 195:9.11 So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source. UB 1955
​

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I have to say, this is the strangest interaction that I have ever had on the internet and I've been posting on religious forums since Al Gore invented it!

Here, since you are just a middleman then show your coworkers this:

Christianity’s Problem​

(2082.6) 195:9.1 Do not overlook the value of your spiritual heritage, the river of truth running down through the centuries, even to the barren times of a materialistic and secular age. In all your worthy efforts to rid yourselves of the superstitious creeds of past ages, make sure that you hold fast the eternal truth. But be patient! when the present superstition revolt is over, the truths of Jesus’ gospel will persist gloriously to illuminate a new and better way.

(2082.7) 195:9.2 But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

(2082.8) 195:9.3 The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

(2082.9) 195:9.4 Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings. If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus’ religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world.

(2083.1) 195:9.5 The modern age will refuse to accept a religion which is inconsistent with facts and out of harmony with its highest conceptions of truth, beauty, and goodness. The hour is striking for a rediscovery of the true and original foundations of present-day distorted and compromised Christianity — the real life and teachings of Jesus.

(2083.2) 195:9.6 Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them — and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.

(2083.3) 195:9.7 Selfish men and women simply will not pay such a price for even the greatest spiritual treasure ever offered mortal man. Only when man has become sufficiently disillusioned by the sorrowful disappointments attendant upon the foolish and deceptive pursuits of selfishness, and subsequent to the discovery of the barrenness of formalized religion, will he be disposed to turn wholeheartedly to the gospel of the kingdom, the religion of Jesus of Nazareth.

(2083.4) 195:9.8 The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings! Descriptive words of things beautiful cannot thrill like the sight thereof, neither can creedal words inspire men’s souls like the experience of knowing the presence of God. But expectant faith will ever keep the hope-door of man’s soul open for the entrance of the eternal spiritual realities of the divine values of the worlds beyond.

(2083.5) 195:9.9 Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

(2083.6) 195:9.10 Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

(2083.7) 195:9.11 So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source. UB 1955
​

I don't think asking my coworkers to read a large non sequitur would change their opinion of you. Unless you can show me in the text where it mentions that being rude while presenting your religion is something that the church endorses, or accomplishes anything positive.

The fact that you seemingly refuse to acknowledge that anyone's opinion of your behavior, Christian or non Christian, means anything to you is probably all they need to know.

I remember an exchange years ago with another poster in which he said something to the effect of "It doesn't matter how horrible I am to other people, it's the Holy Spirit and not me that convicts people." When asked about his terrible success rate and bad reputation on the site, he quickly took the defensive position of "Well, people's hearts are hardened." And when a Christian chimed in that she had great success just by being civil, he stopped posting entirely.

Something to think about...

 

[Colter]

I don't think asking my coworkers to read a large non sequitur would change their opinion of you. Unless you can show me in the text where it mentions that being rude while presenting your religion is something that the church endorses, or accomplishes anything positive.

The fact that you seemingly refuse to acknowledge that anyone's opinion of your behavior, Christian or non Christian, means anything to you is probably all they need to know.

I remember an exchange years ago with another poster in which he said something to the effect of "It doesn't matter how horrible I am to other people, it's the Holy Spirit and not me that convicts people." When asked about his terrible success rate and bad reputation on the site, he quickly took the defensive position of "Well, people's hearts are hardened." And when a Christian chimed in that she had great success just by being civil, he stopped posting entirely.

Something to think about...

Are you, or they, maybe just a little bit oversensitive?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Are you, or they, maybe just a little bit oversensitive?

If that is your takeaway, I really don't have anything else to say.

I mean, you are doing the work of your opposition, so I don't even know why I brought it up.

Carry on...

 

[Davian]

Ok. How is my insistance of physical evidence faulty argumentation ?

Turn the question around. Provide physical evidence for the existence of gods, and for clarity, do this in the form of a falsifiable hypothesis. Be sure to provide robust definitions for what you mean by "god" etc.

I'm repeating Yahweh's promise found in the Bible.

You have not established that you have done any other than read a passage from a book, and it is dismissed as such. I do not accept what you believe to be true as fact.

By find I mean discover who Yahweh is and come to know Him. This finding involves a relationship that includes prayer, teaching in righteousness, spiritual growth, discipline when needed etc; basically preparation for the coming Kingdom.

Again, this reads like an exercise in self-deception, and nothing like an exploration of reality.

Nice quote and until now I thought I Robot was one of Philip Dicks works. Ta.


Explain to me how you can truly search for something that you don't believe exists ? ie. with all of your heart, soul, and mind.

Search for gods? I cannot.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

IMO, when people deconvert, it is not because they all of a sudden started to use logic, it is more because the psychological need they had to ignore logic, has waned and they then become more aware of why they can no longer reconcile the belief they had, with reality.

When they believed, they likely knew this logic existed, they just denied the same, because the psychological need was strong enough to create defense mechanisms; denial, confirmation bias, selective reasoning.

IMO, if you present sound logic to someone with a strong enough psychological need to believe something, it will not make a bit of difference, until that psychological need changes.

While I am sure that people can come up with any excuse to hide behind, I also think that people are sometimes honest with themselves about their psychological needs, why they believe in things, and reasoning can get them to the point where they will look at the issue.

What you say supports my point.

If a person has a level of objective honesty with themselves, then their psychology is at a point, where they are open to acknowledging what they believe in may be wrong. Some people are not at this point.

I'm also saying that exposure to logic and reasoning is likely to help people be more honest with themselves.

It should open them to lines of thinking that they would not necessarily take on their own.

This resonates with my own experience. Reading more broadly and talking about philosophy, science and religion with others brought me to a point where I could acknowledge that my beliefs could be wrong. Prior to this, I couldn't conceive of ever letting go of my faith. The thought of atheism repulsed me. When it came to my religious beliefs, failure was not an option; I had to be right. It was a long and sometimes arduous process to go from there to a point where I could be honest with myself.