What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[agua]

What are you talking about? It's exactly the answer you gave, but not for the dragon.

No it isn't. Can you show me where I said there's no evidence for the existance of Yahweh ?

What evidence do you think would be required to support the idea that "whoever seeks him shall find him"?

Finding Yahweh.

In principle, manipulation could occur at any stage, even at later interpretative stages. The point being that the mere existence of the Bible, in its current form, does not necessarily indicate that it was inspired by Yahweh.

Correct. This is why you need to investigate the contents and see if it's message is consistant, if the prophecies it contains are correct etc. I'd still like to see how you suggest this manipulation took place, and when in the process it happened.

Then in what way does it accurately describe our world? It seems to have missed some of its most salient characteristics.

The Bible doesn't contain a description of every stage of society development and progression because this would require an encyclopedia of books . The Bible contains enough detailed information to describe Yahweh's purpose for us, and how this will come to fruition.

Yes, I can, but I question the point of the exercise because I already foresee what you're going to say. No matter what answer I give, you will conclude that my search was insincere because I am no longer a believer.

Ok. I've become a little bored with people deducing my answers. Tell me how your search began and progressed and let's see. Of course our sincerity is important, and Yahweh knows our every thought.

Really? Someone living in a culture completely free of Christianity and the Bible will find the Christian God simply by searching for the creator of the universe? They will find Yahweh without ever having encountered the religious traditions that worship him?

Yes of course. Yahweh's promise is to all humans.

Why would I believe that the universe has a creator?

Why should we presume that the universe requires a creator deity?

Because Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power, and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

 

[JGG]

Because Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power, and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

Begging the question. It was declared that this was the journey to find Yahweh. What Yahweh said is not yet a concern. It supposes the conclusion to support the conclusion. No good.

 

[quatona]

Because Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power, and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

The circularity of your arguments makes me all dizzy.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No it isn't. Can you show me where I said there's no evidence for the existance of Yahweh ?

Pardon? That's not at all what I meant. I meant that you claimed Yahweh could be found by honestly searching for him with all your heart, mind and soul. That is what you said, is it not?

Finding Yahweh.

And what of those who do not find him after having searched?

Correct. This is why you need to investigate the contents and see if it's message is consistant, if the prophecies it contains are correct etc. I'd still like to see how you suggest this manipulation took place, and when in the process it happened.

I'd still like to see how your claim here demonstrates that Yahweh inspired the Bible. How would you differentiate a book that is divinely inspired from a book that is written, edited and compiled by human beings?

The Bible doesn't contain a description of every stage of society development and progression because this would require an encyclopedia of books . The Bible contains enough detailed information to describe Yahweh's purpose for us, and how this will come to fruition.

Then it was wrong for you to say that "the Bible explains the current world condition accurately." It clearly doesn't.

Ok. I've become a little bored with people deducing my answers. Tell me how your search began and progressed and let's see. Of course our sincerity is important, and Yahweh knows our every thought.

I briefly detail some of it here. Perhaps I can tailor my response better if you tell me what do you think "honestly searching" consists in?

Yes of course. Yahweh's promise is to all humans.

I'm skeptical of this claim. What you are suggesting is that someone who has never encountered Christianity will find the Christian God simply by searching for the creator of the universe, without even so much as touching a Bible or talking to a Christian.

Because Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power,and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

How is the mere existence of a universe evidence for a creator deity?

 

[agua]

Pardon? That's not at all what I meant. I meant that you claimed Yahweh could be found by honestly searching for him with all your heart, mind and soul. That is what you said, is it not?

No you're mixing conversations/topics. For the Dragon in the garage metaphor I required evidence of his existance and you replied that I could find this Dragon by truly seeking him etc. That isn't the evidence but the process caused by the evidence. eg. Evidence that Yahweh exists is Creation. Searching for this Creator reveals Yahweh.

We get to this misunderstanding position often, it seems.

And what of those who do not find him after having searched?

The requirement for the search is with all the heart soul and mind. Yahweh said you will find Him if you do this.

I'd still like to see how your claim here demonstrates that Yahweh inspired the Bible. How would you differentiate a book that is divinely inspired from a book that is written, edited and compiled by human beings?

A book that is divinely inspired would contain things not possible from men. eg. phophecy fullfilled, cohency of message spanning thousands of years between people who didn't know eachother etc.

Then it was wrong for you to say that "the Bible explains the current world condition accurately." It clearly doesn't.

The condition of the world concerns it's state of being in decay/pollution and morally declining. This condition can be kniown without every specific of the society itself.

I briefly detail some of it here. Perhaps I can tailor my response better if you tell me what do you think "honestly searching" consists in?

Sorry I don't click links. I'd like to hear the story of your search and how it began and progressed. I don't expect it tailored in any way. Maybe you can stop trying to deduce my questions and simply go though the exercise; I'm not trying to cause you harm.

My data is shrinking fast again and I'll need to take a break from this site again ( it chews heaps of my data allowance ) but I'd appreciate it if you could pm me the details. If not I'll check in when my data is renewed.

I'm skeptical of this claim. What you are suggesting is that someone who has never encountered Christianity will find the Christian God simply by searching for the creator of the universe, without even so much as touching a Bible or talking to a Christian.

Yes that's correct. There have been many people who have/had no contact with Chritianity, as you can imagine. They have the same opportunity to find Yahweh and the indication in the Bible is that the burden upon people depends upon their ability.

How is the mere existence of a universe evidence for a creator deity?

I've already answered this.

Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power,and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

See you soon hopefully be nice to me while I'm away

 

[agua]

Begging the question. It was declared that this was the journey to find Yahweh. What Yahweh said is not yet a concern. It supposes the conclusion to support the conclusion. No good.

Even though Yahweh made this promise, it isn't a requirement to know this. ie. any person can look at Creation and believe it requires a Creator, and begin the search for Yahweh, without knowing the Bible or any other believer. The conclusion doesn't require knowing the premise, and is supported by the result.

The circularity of your arguments makes me all dizzy.

I'd try reading the argument again because it's a concept not well understood. Why would anyone search for something ( truly/ with all heart, soul. mind ) if they don't believe it exists.

If that fails I suggest sitting down when dizzy

 

[agua]

Sorry people be back soon hopefully.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No you're mixing conversations/topics. For the Dragon in the garage metaphor I required evidence of his existance and you replied that I could find this Dragon by truly seeking him etc. That isn't the evidence but the process caused by the evidence. eg. Evidence that Yahweh exists is Creation. Searching for this Creator reveals Yahweh.

You have yet to establish that this is the case. In what way is the mere existence of a universe evidence for a creator deity and Yahweh specifically?

Besides which, why can't I make a similar claim with regard to the Dragon?
"The existence of the universe is evidence for the Dragon. If you search for him with all your heart, mind and soul you will find him, for that is what the Dragon has proclaimed."

The requirement for the search is with all the heart soul and mind. Yahweh said you will find Him if you do this.

And what of those who have searched with all their heart, mind and soul and still haven't found him?

A book that is divinely inspired would contain things not possible from men. eg. phophecy fullfilled, cohency of message spanning thousands of years between people who didn't know eachother etc.

It's not possible for men to "fulfil" prophecies by claiming that a certain event occurred and fulfilled the prophecy?

By the way, I'm sure you are aware that not everyone agrees that the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled.

The condition of the world concerns it's state of being in decay/pollution and morally declining. This condition can be kniown without every specific of the society itself.

Is it morally declining? How do you know that?

Sorry I don't click links. I'd like to hear the story of your search and how it began and progressed. I don't expect it tailored in any way. Maybe you can stop trying to deduce my questions and simply go though the exercise; I'm not trying to cause you harm.

My data is shrinking fast again and I'll need to take a break from this site again ( it chews heaps of my data allowance ) but I'd appreciate it if you could pm me the details. If not I'll check in when my data is renewed.
Yes that's correct. There have been many people who have/had no contact with Chritianity, as you can imagine. They have the same opportunity to find Yahweh and the indication in the Bible is that the burden upon people depends upon their ability.

I'll PM it to you shortly.

I've already answered this.

Yahweh said the Universe is evidence of His existance, power,and sovereignty. I suggest this is because of it's order, complexity, beauty, majesty, infinite size etc.

That doesn't answer the question, aqua. In fact, that was the very response that prompted the question in the first place. How is the mere existence of a universe evidence for a creator deity?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Even though Yahweh made this promise, it isn't a requirement to know this. ie. any person can look at Creation and believe it requires a Creator,

Why should we believe that it requires a creator, specifically a deity? You haven't even attempted to support this claim.

and begin the search for Yahweh, without knowing the Bible or any other believer. The conclusion doesn't require knowing the premise, and is supported by the result.

I'm unconvinced that someone who lacks access to Christian sources would somehow independently reach the conclusion that the Christian God is real.

 

[JGG]

Even though Yahweh made this promise, it isn't a requirement to know this. ie. any person can look at Creation and believe it requires a Creator, and begin the search for Yahweh, without knowing the Bible or any other believer. The conclusion doesn't require knowing the premise, and is supported by the result.

But one could look at the universe and realize that there is no reason to believe that it was actually created, and believe instead that it is infinite in it's own right.

 

[KCfromNC]

Ah ok fair enough. If you accept the experiences of these "real people" I assume you investigated their claims. Can you tell me how they justified the search for Yahweh ?

No. Neither can you. All we have is what they've said - that they sincerely searched for god and found nothing. Do you have any evidence that every person for failed to find god was insincere in their search? What sort of checklist should I make them go through to validate their claim? Please be specific.

 

[bhsmte]

No. Neither can you. All we have is what they've said - that they sincerely searched for god and found nothing. Do you have any evidence that every person for failed to find god was insincere in their search? What sort of checklist should I make them go through to validate their claim? Please be specific.

I think that checklist would look like this:

Their search did not find the God I believe in: the search was not sincere

Their search found the God I believe in: the search is sincere

Judging by everything I have read from this poster, the above would fit quite well.

 

[KCfromNC]

This search begins by achnowledging the Universe requires a Creator, and progresses to looking for Him.

Yep, assume it must be a "Him", with a capital H. If you can't see the preconceived notions required to make this approach work, I'm not sure what to say.

 

[KCfromNC]

You have yet to establish that this is the case. In what way is the mere existence of a universe evidence for a creator deity and Yahweh specifically?

Besides which, why can't I make a similar claim with regard to the Dragon?
"The existence of the universe is evidence for the Dragon. If you search for him with all your heart, mind and soul you will find him, for that is what the Dragon has proclaimed."

Or for a different approach, the mere existence of your garage is evidence of the dragon living there. After all, if the garage wasn't there where would the dragon live?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

LoL! Now Mr tolerance is name calling.

If you're referring to "jerk", that was what my co-workers called you, not me. That was completely unprompted by me.

And I'm not sure why you would call me "Mr tolerence", since you don't know me, unless it's some sort of stereotype you have conjured in your head that you use when dealing with unbelievers.

The answer to your question is that I don't care what your smug opinion is of me. You are baiting me like the atheist do. It's a game people play, get a rise and then cry foul, pigeon holeing the person into evidence of their contentions.

It's been very clear that what I'm interested in is how you deal with other Christians who find your behavior abhorrent. You've already implied that you don't care what atheists think of you, which in and of itself doesn't make sense given that A) An atheist on the fence could be swayed by a Christian that doesn't act like you do, and B) You could be damaging to Christians on the fence.

So, do you care what other Christians think of you or not? What would you say to my co-workers (I added a third this morning) who think you're doing a disservice to your faith? What if it were people from your own church who were saying this?

 

[bhsmte]

If you're referring to "jerk", that was what my co-workers called you, not me. That was completely unprompted by me.

And I'm not sure why you would call me "Mr tolerence", since you don't know me, unless it's some sort of stereotype you have conjured in your head that you use when dealing with unbelievers.



It's been very clear that what I'm interested in is how you deal with other Christians who find your behavior abhorrent. You've already implied that you don't care what atheists think of you, which in and of itself doesn't make sense given that A) An atheist on the fence could be swayed by a Christian that doesn't act like you do, and B) You could be damaging to Christians on the fence.

So, do you care what other Christians think of you or not? What would you say to my co-workers (I added a third this morning) who think you're doing a disservice to your faith? What if it were people from your own church who were saying this?

There is no question, those of faith who are judgmental, drive more people away from faith, then they bring to faith.

https://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/528-six-reasons-young-christians-leave-church

 

[variant]

The search for Yahweh begins in searching for the Creator of the Universe. You can start this search without having any contact with the Bible, or Christianity, and still find Yahweh.

And why should you bias yourself and assume the universe has a creator?

 

[bhsmte]

And why should you bias yourself and assume the universe has a creator?

Because, if you really, really need to believe something, start by believing it exists.

 

[variant]

Because, if you really, really need to believe something, start by believing it exists.

The path to religion starts with question begging then.

I think logic classes should be mandatory in high school.

 

[bhsmte]

The path to religion starts with question begging then.

I think logic classes should be mandatory in high school.

Not sure it would matter much.

Psychological need, will always trump logic, if it is strong enough.