What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[Archaeopteryx]

Firstly it would be good if you don't assume my reasons for accepting the Bible is inspired, and I won't assume I know why you don't.

Ok. Your question is how do I know the Bible was inspired by Yahweh?

I'll start with a couple of points and you can ask for more as we go. I'll avoid personal experience.

1. The Bible is a compilation 66 different Books by ~ 40 different authors over a period of about 2000 years. Every book in the Bible has a message which is consistant with the others, and contains the same message pointing to Christ.

How does that show that the Bible is inspired by Yahweh? (1) is also commensurate with the notion that men wrote, edited, compiled and reinterpreted these books to suit the religious message they wanted to convey.

2.The Bible explains the current world condition accurately.

The Bible foretells our modern information age and global society?

 

[Davian]

Ah sorry I missed this post amid the pages of mud slinging.

I don't see how you were fair in applying this analogy, without allowing for me to interrogate. I don't click links and would prefer you give me your understanding, or your summary of the argument if you glean it from somewhere. We need to answer eachother's questions and not answer for eachother.

To be fair, the purpose of the analogy was not for you to interrogate me, but for it to expose the theists' presuppositions and faulty argumentation, such as your insistence on "physical" evidence.

Statement #245 is this post. Is it the one you want me to address ? I've made several posts on this topic but if you have more questions please ask.

Yahweh said anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him; and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him. _________________

Let's look at this:

"Yahweh said"

Do you speak for this "Yahweh"? Or are you just reading this in a book? Please be clear and consistent.

"anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him;"

What do you mean by "find"? that you will believe? That you believe something to be real does not make it real.

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.” ― Isaac Asimov

" and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him. "

Unless "he" is simply a product of human imagination. You can "truly" search and find nothing, even if that is what you seek.

I am not seeking religion, I am seeking accurate descriptions of reality.

 

[Davian]

I think it is a beautiful thing to believe in God. I hope you agree. You also have a belief perhaps. It is amazing that we are all given a choice.

In what way is belief a conscious choice?

 

[Davian]

LoL! Now Mr tolerance is name calling. The answer to your question is that I don't care what your smug opinion is of me. You are baiting me like the atheist do. It's a game people play, get a rise and then cry foul, pigeon holeing the person into evidence of their contentions.

Maybe you should check your own post with you coworkers, and then get back to work!



Jesus said many difficult things, you would have called him names as well!


34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’c
37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

That Jesus sounds like nasty person. Definitely not for the family man.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Wow I don't check the forum for a day and a half and there's nearly 20 more pages in this thread. I'll try to catch up I think this is around the last unaddressed point I was up to.

Ok. Can you present these individuals, or at least one person, who has truly sought Yahweh and not found him. We can then address what truly seeking looks like, and what it means.

Being an ex-Christian, I suppose I can present myself as an example.

 

[variant]

Oh I forgot to ask. Why can't you start the search by acknowledging there is a Creator ?

When you start a search by deciding what the outcome will be then you are just looking to confirm what you already think.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

When you start a search by deciding what the outcome will be then you are just looking to confirm what you already think.

When you cannot be wrong about your preferred outcome, when failure is not an option, then all evidence is either confirmatory or it is disregarded, dismissed, or ignored.

 

[variant]

When you cannot be wrong about your preferred outcome, when failure is not an option, then all evidence is either confirmatory or it is disregarded, dismissed, or ignored.

Bias is also hard enough to limit even when you are actually trying, impossible when you aren't.

 

[agua]

No, but you can know that he is there by truly seeking him with all your heart, mind, and soul.

This isn't an answer I would give and if it was, I'd understand why the person wouldn't accept it.

I'm not sure what quoting scripture accomplishes, other than repeating your claims. It's not evidence for the claim that "whoever seeks him shall find him." It's the claim itself, written in scripture.

What evidence for Yahweh's claim would be sufficient, for you ?

How does that show that the Bible is inspired by Yahweh? (1) is also commensurate with the notion that men wrote, edited, compiled and reinterpreted these books to suit the religious message they wanted to convey.

Ok. If this is true can you tell me how it would work from manuscipt to Bible. Do you accept the manuscript message wasn't changed between finding and translation ? At what stage did the manipulation occur ?

The Bible foretells our modern information age and global society?

Not that I know of. Some people use a Daniel prophecy to claim this but I don't accept the claim.

Being an ex-Christian, I suppose I can present myself as an example.

Ok good. Can you describe for me how this search for Yahweh began and progressed ?

 

[agua]

Why then:

Are violent crimes down?
When then is slavery not allowed any longer?
Why then is discrimination frowned up?

Firstly, to be fair, do you accept that openly accepted sexual immorality has progressed to a higher level than ever before ?

The violent crime situation is interesting because I'm not sure how the data is interpreted. Unfortunately here in Australia a lot of violent crime goes unreported esp. spousal and child abuse. Here it seems that murder has decreased while sexual crimes have increased over the past 20 years. I agree abolition of slavery has been a good thing and I'm not suggesting there hasn't been anything positive. What type of discrimination do you mean ?

In general do you believe society is becoming more or less moral according to the Biblical standard?

 

[agua]

Davian said: To be fair, the purpose of the analogy was not for you to interrogate me, but for it to expose the theists' presuppositions and faulty argumentation, such as your insistence on "physical" evidence.

Ok. How is my insistance of physical evidence faulty argumentation ?

Let's look at this:

"Yahweh said"

Do you speak for this "Yahweh"? Or are you just reading this in a book? Please be clear and consistent.

I'm repeating Yahweh's promise found in the Bible.

"anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him;"

What do you mean by "find"? that you will believe? That you believe something to be real does not make it real.

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.” ― Isaac Asimov

By find I mean discover who Yahweh is and come to know Him. This finding involves a relationship that includes prayer, teaching in righteousness, spiritual growth, discipline when needed etc; basically preparation for the coming Kingdom.

Nice quote and until now I thought I Robot was one of Philip Dicks works. Ta.

" and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him. "

Unless "he" is simply a product of human imagination. You can "truly" search and find nothing, even if that is what you seek.

I am not seeking religion, I am seeking accurate descriptions of reality.

Explain to me how you can truly search for something that you don't believe exists ? ie. with all of your heart, soul, and mind.

 

[agua]

When you start a search by deciding what the outcome will be then you are just looking to confirm what you already think.

The search for Yahweh begins in searching for the Creator of the Universe. You can start this search without having any contact with the Bible, or Christianity, and still find Yahweh.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This isn't an answer I would give and if it was, I'd understand why the person wouldn't accept it.

What are you talking about? It's exactly the answer you gave, but not for the dragon.

What evidence for Yahweh's claim would be sufficient, for you ?

What evidence do you think would be required to support the idea that "whoever seeks him shall find him"?

Ok. If this is true can you tell me how it would work from manuscipt to Bible. Do you accept the manuscript message wasn't changed between finding and translation ? At what stage did the manipulation occur ?

In principle, manipulation could occur at any stage, even at later interpretative stages. The point being that the mere existence of the Bible, in its current form, does not necessarily indicate that it was inspired by Yahweh.

Not that I know of. Some people use a Daniel prophecy to claim this but I don't accept the claim.

Then in what way does it accurately describe our world? It seems to have missed some of its most salient characteristics.

Ok good. Can you describe for me how this search for Yahweh began and progressed ?

Yes, I can, but I question the point of the exercise because I already foresee what you're going to say. No matter what answer I give, you will conclude that my search was insincere because I am no longer a believer.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The search for Yahweh begins in searching for the Creator of the Universe. You can start this search without having any contact with the Bible, or Christianity, and still find Yahweh.

Really? Someone living in a culture completely free of Christianity and the Bible will find the Christian God simply by searching for the creator of the universe? They will find Yahweh without ever having encountered the religious traditions that worship him?

 

[JGG]

Explain to me how you can truly search for something that you don't believe exists ? ie. with all of your heart, soul, and mind.

Are you suggesting that one must have complete faith in God to search for faith in God?

 

[JGG]

The search for Yahweh begins in searching for the Creator of the Universe. You can start this search without having any contact with the Bible, or Christianity, and still find Yahweh.

How does this search begin?

 

[agua]

Are you suggesting that one must have complete faith in God to search for faith in God?

No. I'm saying that to search for Yahweh you need to believe that the Universe requires a Creator. At this stage you will not know who Yahweh is, but simply accept that a being created. You don't search for faith and "Complete faith" comes from knowing Yahweh.

 

[agua]

How does this search begin?

This search begins by achnowledging the Universe requires a Creator, and progresses to looking for Him.

 

[JGG]

No. I'm saying that to search for Yahweh you need to believe that the Universe requires a Creator. At this stage you will not know who Yahweh is, but simply accept that a being created. You don't search for faith and "Complete faith" comes from knowing Yahweh.

Why would I believe that the universe has a creator?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No. I'm saying that to search for Yahweh you need to believe that the Universe requires a Creator. At this stage you will not know who Yahweh is, but simply accept that a being created. You don't search for faith and "Complete faith" comes from knowing Yahweh.

This search begins by achnowledging the Universe requires a Creator, and progresses to looking for Him.

Why should we presume that the universe requires a creator deity?