What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[agua]

Sure - all of the people who truly seeked and never found a god and all of the people who truly seeked and left Christianity after finding there was nothing really there.

I'll go with real peoples' experiences rather than random quotes out of a book any day.

Ah ok fair enough. If you accept the experiences of these "real people" I assume you investigated their claims. Can you tell me how they justified the search for Yahweh ?

 

[Davian]

I'm happy to address the argument, without the diatribe, if you like.

If you can keep it civil, then do so.

 

[Loudmouth]

You have the freedom to make this choice. The reason you should believe Yahweh is that He's true to His word. . . .


Are you asking for evidence that Yahweh said that anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him ?

The promise to the Israelite.

Deu 4:29 KJV But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

The promise to all humans.

This is one of the problems with these discussions. Men wrote those verses, not Yahweh. Yahweh is not a book.

You may BELIEVE that Yahweh inspired the Bible, but it is a belief and not a fact. You are asking us to accept that a deity wrote the Bible on your say so with no evidence to back it up.

 

[agua]

Search, and you shall find!

I appreciate good natured humour and thank you for keeping our discussion civil.

Am I missing something here... or are you?

What I was trying to say, in an example: 42. This is the answer, the result that your search is supposed to find. So what is the question? The only description of the question that we have is: "the answer must be 42".
You cannot find the correct question based on that alone... and if you don't have the correct question, you will never know if your answer is correct.

Ah ok. I must qualify that this mathematical metaphor musr rely on a math teacher to represent Yahweh's claim. ie. 42 implies there is a process/way it came to be and you attempt to find out. If you search for the answer the Teacher will guide you. I think we might be mixing metaphors here though a little because we aren't searching for the method Yahweh Created, but simply that He did.

Well, yes, that is my position also: if there isn't a car, you wouldn't be searching for the keys.
But how do we know if there is a car?

You say: "Yahweh says every person has a car in their driveway." I say: "what the heck are you talking about. There isn't any car in my driveway."

We might even agree that there is something in my driveway... but in my (founded) opinion, this isn't a car at all. It's bunch of apples... and why would I need a key for that?

We're misunderstanding our metaphors I think. The car is the axiom physical evidence that we can see. ie. we both agree the car is in your driveway in the same sense that we both agree the Universe exists. The car is an axiom metaphor for Creation.

 

[agua]

If you can keep it civil, then do so.

What is the physical evidence of the Dragon in your garage ?

 

[agua]

This is one of the problems with these discussions. Men wrote those verses, not Yahweh. Yahweh is not a book.

You may BELIEVE that Yahweh inspired the Bible, but it is a belief and not a fact. You are asking us to accept that a deity wrote the Bible on your say so with no evidence to back it up.

I'm not asking you to accept anything Yahweh said, that's your choice. The evidence for the inspiration of the Bible is quite interesting if you'd like to look into it.

Do you believe Homer wrote Iliad ?

 

[Freodin]

Ah ok. I must qualify that this mathematical metaphor musr rely on a math teacher to represent Yahweh's claim. ie. 42 implies there is a process/way it came to be and you attempt to find out. If you search for the answer the Teacher will guide you. I think we might be mixing metaphors here though a little because we aren't searching for the method Yahweh Created, but simply that He did.

Well, "searching for" is a little vague, don't you think? Especially "searching for" something so specific as a certain detailed deity.

But perhaps you are the one who can explain to me how I do this "truly seeking". I really don't have a clue... and that brings us back to my example: after-the-fact-stating that I "truly sough" when I got a certain result, and that I "not truly sought" when I got a different result is a little lacking in "guiding".

We're misunderstanding our metaphors I think. The car is the axiom physical evidence that we can see. ie. we both agree the car is in your driveway in the same sense that we both agree the Universe exists. The car is an axiom metaphor for Creation.

As you see it. But again that is the problem with our different views.

We both see the existence of the universe. You think that it needs keys to work (to keep the metaphor)... I don't.

 

[Loudmouth]

I'm not asking you to accept anything Yahweh said, that's your choice. The evidence for the inspiration of the Bible is quite interesting if you'd like to look into it.

What is that evidence?

Do you believe Homer wrote Iliad ?

I could care less. Nothing in the Iliad requires that Homer wrote it. My gut feeling is that Homer was probably a mythical author and it was written by many authors over many generations. However it came to be, I enjoy the myths just the same.

Is that how you view the Bible?

 

[Davian]

What is the physical evidence of the Dragon in your garage ?

I finished with that here.

If you were looking to discuss your self-deception-as-evidence-for-God statement in #245, then we can go there.

 

[agua]

Well, "searching for" is a little vague, don't you think? Especially "searching for" something so specific as a certain detailed deity.

But perhaps you are the one who can explain to me how I do this "truly seeking". I really don't have a clue... and that brings us back to my example: after-the-fact-stating that I "truly sough" when I got a certain result, and that I "not truly sought" when I got a different result is a little lacking in "guiding".

Here sits the burden Yahweh places upon humans. To be sure a person is sincere in the search it must be as per Yahweh's requirements ; with all of the heart, soul, mind. To begin this search you must acknowledge creation requires a Creator. From there we mostly prefer to be given the answer in this matter with little to no effort.

As you see it. But again that is the problem with our different views.

We both see the existence of the universe. You think that it needs keys to work (to keep the metaphor)... I don't.

Yes this is the problem.

Yahweh says that the Universe is evidence of His existance, sovereignty, and power.

 

[Loudmouth]

Here sits the burden Yahweh places upon humans. To be sure a person is sincere in the search it must be as per Yahweh's requirements ; with all of the heart, soul, mind. To begin this search you must acknowledge creation requires a Creator. From there we mostly prefer to be given the answer in this matter with little to no effort.

Yahweh does? All we have so far is your say so, and the say so of the men who wrote the Bible. You also put the end of the search at the beginning. You tell us to start with the belief, and then we will end up believing.

Yes this is the problem.

Yahweh says that the Universe is evidence of His existance, sovereignty, and power.

A claim written by men is not evidence. It is a claim.

 

[Freodin]

Here sits the burden Yahweh places upon humans. To be sure a person is sincere in the search it must be as per Yahweh's requirements ; with all of the heart, soul, mind.

This sounds nice, but isn't helpful either.

To begin this search you must acknowledge creation requires a Creator. From there we mostly prefer to be given the answer in this matter with little to no effort.

And we are back on position one again: the acknowledgement of a creator is said to be the result of our quest. You cannot start with that.

Yes this is the problem.

Yahweh says that the Universe is evidence of His existance, sovereignty, and power.

And again: not helpful. As someone who doesn't already believe in a deity, much less Yahweh, what "Yahweh says" is not going to be of much relevance to me.

Can you explain to me why it should be?

 

[bhsmte]

Here sits the burden Yahweh places upon humans. To be sure a person is sincere in the search it must be as per Yahweh's requirements ; with all of the heart, soul, mind. To begin this search you must acknowledge creation requires a Creator. From there we mostly prefer to be given the answer in this matter with little to no effort.

In other words, one needs to start with the psychological need, that a creator is necessary and then everything seems to fall in line. Not much bias there.

Yahweh says that the Universe is evidence of His existance, sovereignty, and power.

Not really. A bunch of ancient stories, written my mostly anonymous authors, says so.

 

[agua]

I finished with that here.

If you were looking to discuss your self-deception-as-evidence-for-God statement in #245, then we can go there.

Ah sorry I missed this post amid the pages of mud slinging.

I don't see how you were fair in applying this analogy, without allowing for me to interrogate. I don't click links and would prefer you give me your understanding, or your summary of the argument if you glean it from somewhere. We need to answer eachother's questions and not answer for eachother.

Statement #245 is this post. Is it the one you want me to address ? I've made several posts on this topic but if you have more questions please ask.

Originally Posted by Archaeopteryx

What about all those who seek him but never find him, or those who seek him and find the God (or gods) of a religion different to yours?
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Yahweh said anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him; and so it isn't possible that a person who truly seeks Him won't find Him. _________________

 

[agua]

In other words, one needs to start with the psychological need, that a creator is necessary and then everything seems to fall in line. Not much bias there.

No the starting point is curiousity, and acknowledgement of a Creator.

Not really. A bunch of ancient stories, written my mostly anonymous authors, says so.

I disagree. The Bible is far more credible, manuscript wise, than any other ancient document. Do you have an ancient document with more manuscripts and closeness to the originals to present ?

 

[agua]

And we are back on position one again: the acknowledgement of a creator is said to be the result of our quest. You cannot start with that.


And again: not helpful. As someone who doesn't already believe in a deity, much less Yahweh, what "Yahweh says" is not going to be of much relevance to me.

Can you explain to me why it should be?

Yes you have identified the dilema and it is how Yahweh also presnts it.ie humans who don't accept that the Univers requires a Creator won't search for Him. I don't assume to give you the reason to search because Yahweh says that He has done that adequately.

We haven't separated the acknowledgement that there is a Creator, with actually finding Yahweh. ie. the beginning of the search is for a Creator ( unidentified ) that we do not know. The end of the search is finding ( and knowing ) Yahweh.

Oh I forgot to ask. Why can't you start the search by acknowledging there is a Creator ?

 

[bhsmte]

No the starting point is curiousity, and acknowledgement of a Creator.

Sorry, acknowledging that something is required is not curiosity, it is predetermined bias. Not a good way to determine the truth, objectively.

A curious position would be; I wonder why the universe exists?

A bias position would be; the universe exists, so a creator must be required.

I disagree. The Bible is far more credible, manuscript wise, than any other ancient document. Do you have an ancient document with more manuscripts and closeness to the originals to present ?

Indeed, there are copies of copies of copies of copies and no matter how many there are, this does not determine how credible the written word is from a historical method standpoint.

 

[agua]

Sorry, acknowledging that something is required is not curiosity, it is predetermined bias. Not a good way to determine the truth, objectively.

A curious position would be; I wonder why the universe exists?

A bias position would be; the universe exists, so a creator must be required.

I couldn't possible start with a position " I wonder if the Universe exists". I see that as an axiom in discussions even though some greek thinkers like to delve into this type of speculation.

Can we use the Universe as an axiom ?

Indeed, there are copies of copies of copies of copies and no matter how many there are, this does not determine how credible the written word is from a historical method standpoint.

Yes there must be more evidence aside from the number of manuscripts.ie. their separation, congruency, and also internal evidence. Most people don't place the same burden upon other ancient manuscripts though.

 

[Freodin]

Yes you have identified the dilema and it is how Yahweh also presnts it.ie humans who don't accept that the Univers requires a Creator won't search for Him. I don't assume to give you the reason to search because Yahweh says that He has done that adequately.

O...k... I think I have heard that one before. Now if I tell you that Yahweh obviously has not "adequately" given me any reasons to search for him... because obviously I don't search for him... is that then the point where you start to question my sincerity?

We haven't separated the acknowledgement that there is a Creator, with actually finding Yahweh. ie. the beginning of the search is for a Creator ( unidentified ) that we do not know. The end of the search is finding ( and knowing ) Yahweh.

Oh I forgot to ask. Why can't you start the search by acknowledging there is a Creator ?

Because as I see it, the existence of a creator is still in question. A search has to start from a known point - a creator is not known.

 

[bhsmte]

I couldn't possible start with a position " I wonder if the Universe exists". I see that as an axiom in discussions even though some greek thinkers like to delve into this type of speculation.

Can we use the Universe as an axiom ?

Was your obvious mistake intentional?

I didn't say; "I wonder if the universe exists" I stated; "I wonder why the universe exists"

Quite a bit of difference there, wouldn't you say?