What Would Evidence for God's Existence Be Like?

[quatona]

And I would say that my opponents aren't honest with themselves about their own motives, they suffer from self delusion and then fane "shock" when someone dare call them out as antagonists on a Christian forum for insulting believers in every clever way.

You didn´t call someone out for insulting believers in every clever way, you were calling out a particular person for declaring he wanted to eliminate Christianity, and you can refer to anything but your memory.

Its ironic and revealing just how sensitive you guys are to my post to Mark about how I recalled him saying that he wants to "eliminate Christianity" when all of you are more or less engaged in undermining the faith of anyone.

There is nothing ironic about that. Even if my goal were to eliminate religion, I would still - without running into any irony - be able to criticize you for accusing someone else falsely of wanting to eliminate religion.

"Oh gasp, we atheist are so offended that you would ever suggest that we would be critical of religion or want to diminish it in any way. Quick, lets search all Marks post, this may be a violation of the atheist codes of naturally appearing ethics."

Make sure you don´t misremember this fake quote as a quote from an atheist.

Sure. When someone says they want to eliminate religion it´s evidence they want to eliminate religion, and when someone say they don´t want to eliminate religion it´s evidence they want to eliminate religion, as well.


All that is revealed here is your intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Freodin]

And I would say that my opponents aren't honest with themselves about their own motives, they suffer from self delusion and then fane "shock" when someone dare call them out as antagonists on a Christian forum for insulting believers in every clever way.

Considering how theists react to claims that they only hold their position for selfish or nefarious reasons (and I admit that these claims exist), I say that is a normal human reaction to claims that you personally, sincerely and deeply think are wrong, dishonest and insulting.

Though I also have to admit that you especially don't waste much time at insulting unbelievers "in every clever way"... you seem to prefer the open blunt direct I-don't-care method of insult.

Its ironic and revealing just how sensitive you guys are to my post to Mark about how I recalled him saying that he wants to "eliminate Christianity" when all of you are more or less engaged in undermining the faith of anyone. "Oh gasp, we atheist are so offended that you would ever suggest that we would be critical of religion or want to diminish it in any way. Quick, lets search all Marks post, this may be a violation of the atheist codes of naturally appearing ethics."

I never though that a bully like you would understand that people might react negatively towards your attacks. That's in your nature.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That dog won't hunt! I don't believe you at all, I think you use the imperfections of the explanations of finite minds about their experiences with the infinite mind as an excuse not to go seek God one on one yourself.

Given our previous exchange regarding this, you surely understand by now that this isn't the case?

Or maybe Archaeopteryx could psychoanalyze me and conclude that because that was once true of me, I project onto you motives that are misdiagnosed and in truth you are just a lovable little fuzz-ball who really just wants so much to understand. Psychological projection was conceptualised by Freud.

Why would I use psychoanalysis?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You are welcome and I'm assuming the humanistic classification is free?


"Theology is always the study of your religion; the study of another’s religion is psychology."UB

If the religion has living adherents, it's comparative religion; if it doesn't, it's mythology.

In case it's not clear to you Colter (I suspect it might not be), I'm being tongue-in-cheek.

 

[KCfromNC]

And I would say that my opponents aren't honest with themselves about their own motives, they suffer from self delusion and then fane "shock" when someone dare call them out as antagonists on a Christian forum for insulting believers in every clever way.

Its ironic and revealing just how sensitive you guys are to my post to Mark about how I recalled him saying that he wants to "eliminate Christianity" when all of you are more or less engaged in undermining the faith of anyone. "Oh gasp, we atheist are so offended that you would ever suggest that we would be critical of religion or want to diminish it in any way. Quick, lets search all Marks post, this may be a violation of the atheist codes of naturally appearing ethics."

Speaking as an uninterested third party, I have to say this is a really terrible apology for lying about what another poster wrote. Try harder next time.

 

[Colter]

Speaking as an uninterested third party, I have to say this is a really terrible apology for lying about what another poster wrote. Try harder next time.

I didn't lie, I went to the thread I thought it was on and a post was deleted. You are an atheist who attempts to undermine faith on a Christian form.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Would you like to dissuade people away from Christianity and into whatever your atheistic approach is?

What I want most is for people to live self-examining lives. I want people to be active-minded (neither close minded nor so open minded that one's brain falls out) and continually ask themselves how they know what they think that they know, instead of letting old beliefs get dusty with neglect.

Sure, like anyone else, I would be pleased if ideas that I find true and valuable were to gain greater popularity, but not because I have a desire to "eliminate" other groups. What I want is for rational people to find value where they can, and if they find it in my beliefs, I'm happy for them. The point is not that they should think like I do, but that they think.

Also, I don't go around trying to deconvert Christians, and don't have it in mind to "eliminate" Christianity in that way. I don't even have any idea how to deconvert anyone, and even if I did it would probably involve techniques that I would not want to use. Long-lasting, genuine improvements in one's worldview take time and patient effort, and can't be imposed from without. Quick changes are likely to mess someone up inside.

I personally don't care that there are Christians in the world as long as they are not dangerously authoritarian or tribalistic, and there are many good Christians like that, some of whom have been loved ones. When I envision the future, I don't see the uniformly atheistic Star Trek Federation, but more the religiously pluralistic Babylon 5 Earth Alliance. As long as the religious groups (and various atheist groups) can get along together peacefully in free societies, and avoid demonizing the other groups, that's fine with me.

Much of what I do at CF is simply to challenge stigmas that exist regarding atheists. When Christians say that atheists can't have meaning in life, or that they are ethically rudderless, or whatnot, I do try to show them that perhaps they just don't understand atheists as well as they think that they do. I believe that sharing perspectives, and having friendly debates and discussions, is a healthy thing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I didn't lie, I went to the thread I thought it was on and a post was deleted.

Which thread was it?

I don't think that you are telling a lie. You could have honestly interpreted something that I had written as a desire to eliminate Christianity, and it's also possible that I had written something in the heat of the moment that I had regretted and then deleted because it didn't reflect my true beliefs on the matter.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Colter]

Which thread was it?


eudaimonia,

Mark

It was in Logical Fallacies that was moved to the Christians only area.


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[Colter]

What I want most is for people to live self-examining lives. I want people to be active-minded (neither close minded nor so open minded that one's brain falls out) and continually ask themselves how they know what they think that they know, instead of letting old beliefs get dusty with neglect.

Sure, like anyone else, I would be pleased if ideas that I find true and valuable were to gain greater popularity, but not because I have a desire to "eliminate" other groups. What I want is for rational people to find value where they can, and if they find it in my beliefs, I'm happy for them. The point is not that they should think like I do, but that they think.

Also, I don't go around trying to deconvert Christians, and don't have it in mind to "eliminate" Christianity in that way. I don't even have any idea how to deconvert anyone, and even if I did it would probably involve techniques that I would not want to use. Long-lasting, genuine improvements in one's worldview take time and patient effort, and can't be imposed from without. Quick changes are likely to mess someone up inside.

I personally don't care that there are Christians in the world as long as they are not dangerously authoritarian or tribalistic, and there are many good Christians like that, some of whom have been loved ones. When I envision the future, I don't see the uniformly atheistic Star Trek Federation, but more the religiously pluralistic Babylon 5 Earth Alliance. As long as the religious groups (and various atheist groups) can get along together peacefully in free societies, and avoid demonizing the other groups, that's fine with me.

Much of what I do at CF is simply to challenge stigmas that exist regarding atheists. When Christians say that atheists can't have meaning in life, or that they are ethically rudderless, or whatnot, I do try to show them that perhaps they just don't understand atheists as well as they think that they do. I believe that sharing perspectives, and having friendly debates and discussions, is a healthy thing.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I read that thanks.

 

[Davian]

I didn't lie, I went to the thread I thought it was on and a post was deleted. You are an atheist who attempts to undermine faith on a Christian form.

Is there some sort of requirement for you to participate in this forum?

 

[bhsmte]

As a psychologist, I find some believers' psychological guesswork to be quite... interesting.

Indeed.

One of the reasons I frequent these boards is my interest in psychology.

Much less interested in what people believe or don't believe, but take tremendous interest in how people justify their beliefs and how that belief impacts their perception of well evidence realities and behavior towards others.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If someone's faith in God is so undecided and neurotically codependent as to be swayed by an internet post of "Colters" into deconversion then they have more problems than me. But I get that your playing to the audience, maybe they will invite you to the annual Wounded Atheist of Christian Forums roundup as a guest speaker?

I showed this thread, and your posts, to two of my Christian co-workers. Very devout Christians. They both said you weren't being a very good representative of the faith, and could see how someone struggling could look at your posts and be pushed, even slightly, towards unbelief.

So if both atheists and Christian find fault in the way you present yourself, I guess my question to you would be, is this the way you want to be?

Do you think your attitude helps or hurts?

 

[Colter]

I showed this thread, and your posts, to two of my Christian co-workers. Very devout Christians. They both said you weren't being a very good representative of the faith, and could see how someone struggling could look at your posts and be pushed, even slightly, towards unbelief.

So if both atheists and Christian find fault in the way you present yourself, I guess my question to you would be, is this the way you want to be?

Do you think your attitude helps or hurts?

Oh good grief!!!! Really? You chose an extrapolation of this series of discussions with the wolves to give a sampling of me to do an office pole? Isnt that just a little leading?

Have you by chance read the words and ways of Jesus Christ, the person around whom the religion is centered?

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me." ​

These people already didn't like me before I got started! I'm under no illusions that I will win someone over.

 

[agua]

We can point to the individuals who have truly sought him and come away without a belief in him.

Wow I don't check the forum for a day and a half and there's nearly 20 more pages in this thread. I'll try to catch up I think this is around the last unaddressed point I was up to.

Ok. Can you present these individuals, or at least one person, who has truly sought Yahweh and not found him. We can then address what truly seeking looks like, and what it means.

 

[agua]

You mean, the bible says that.

This reads like an exercise in self-deception, and nothing like an exploration of reality.

I'm happy to address the argument, without the diatribe, if you like.

 

[agua]

And herein lies the problem of belief. You assume that the first step is "acknowledgement"... that is, starting from the premise that you already have your answer, and are just looking for confirmation. And only that which yields you this confirmation is considered "truly seeking".

But your premise is incorrect. You need to start from a position of ambiguity. Acknowledgement is what you are looking for, not what you start with.

Ok found where we left off, phew

Ah yes I see what you mean and agree; but need to qualify what this ambiguity is. From Yahweh's perspective the ambiguity applies to finding Him specifically. The initial search relies on believing there is a Creator ( keys to the car ) and then develops into finding the One True God, Yahweh.

The next problem: the only description of this "method" is "if you succeed, you know that you have the right method". Again, you are starting from the end.

Incorrect. There is another identifier of the type of search shown when you don't find Yahweh.

So how do I find out if there is a car parked in my garage?

Let's track back to the "One True God" part of this analogy. Shouldn't I have to start with the acknowledgement that there is a car parked in my garage, and then start looking for the keys?

Yes exactly. The car is a metaphor for Creation ( simply the immediate Earth etc or more complex the Universe etc. ). Yahweh says every person has a car in their driveway. and needs to search for the keys.

Or should I look in my garage for a car first before I start looking for the "One True Key"?

I'm not understanding this point. My analogy applies to something physical/tangible, that we can see. ie. If there isn't a car you wouldn't be searching for the keys.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Oh good grief!!!! Really? You chose an extrapolation of this series of discussions with the wolves to give a sampling of me to do an office pole? Isnt that just a little leading?

My co-workers don't think so. They're only responding to whether you're a jerk in this particular thread instead of whether you're a jerk all the time.

Have you by chance read the words and ways of Jesus Christ, the person around whom the religion is centered?

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me." ​

These people already didn't like me before I got started! I'm under no illusions that I will win someone over.

I've read the Bible. I've never taken the passage to equate "the world" with other Christians. My co-workers, both Christians, don't hate you. Are the verses meant for them as well?

You know, come to think of it I've had other posters point to those exact verses to justify their bad behavior when called out on it. It didn't seem to work out for them.

And you didn't answer my question. Do you really want to be this way? Especially since you've said you don't believe you'll win anyone over, and could possibly hurt instead of help.

 

[Freodin]

Ok found where we left off, phew

Search, and you shall find!

Incorrect. There is another identifier of the type of search shown when you don't find Yahweh.

Am I missing something here... or are you?

What I was trying to say, in an example: 42. This is the answer, the result that your search is supposed to find. So what is the question? The only description of the question that we have is: "the answer must be 42".
You cannot find the correct question based on that alone... and if you don't have the correct question, you will never know if your answer is correct.

Yes exactly. The car is a metaphor for Creation ( simply the immediate Earth etc or more complex the Universe etc. ). Yahweh says every person has a car in their driveway. and needs to search for the keys.



I'm not understanding this point. My analogy applies to something physical/tangible, that we can see. ie. If there isn't a car you wouldn't be searching for the keys.

Well, yes, that is my position also: if there isn't a car, you wouldn't be searching for the keys.
But how do we know if there is a car?

You say: "Yahweh says every person has a car in their driveway." I say: "what the heck are you talking about. There isn't any car in my driveway."

We might even agree that there is something in my driveway... but in my (founded) opinion, this isn't a car at all. It's bunch of apples... and why would I need a key for that?

 

[agua]

Are you admitting to messing around with your previous comments then? Have you been addressing it sincerely? Surely, if you had been addressing it sincerely you would see that there is a dragon, no?

Ok Archaepteryx I'll attempt to proceed, for now. I'm addressing the Dragon in Davian's garage , as an analogy of God. with you taking the position of the believer. If you're willing; I expect you to sincerely defend your argument, and not draw upon what you believe is rediculous forms of arguments from Christians.( I agree some are ).

Has the Dragon left any physical evidence of his presence ?

I don't believe Yahweh has said anything of the sort. Why should I?

You have the freedom to make this choice. The reason you should believe Yahweh is that He's true to His word.

You're asking a sincere question but you won't accept any answer as sincere unless it's the answer you want.

If the answer is sarcastic or mocking I don't assume it's sincere. I don't mock you why do you mock me ?

Why should I have to? You apparently feel no need to present evidence for yours, so why should I present any for my own?

Are you asking for evidence that Yahweh said that anyone who truly seeks Him will find Him ?

The promise to the Israelite.

Deu 4:29 KJV But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

The promise to all humans.

Heb 11:6 KJV But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I'm messing around because, in my view, you are being unreasonable. My messing around might construed as a sort of reductio ad absurdum of your position.

Ok I'm not attempting to be unreasonable and I think you'll agree it's a natural consequence of these types of discussions to head in the direction of diatribe/insults etc. If you're willing to address the points raised, so am I. Neither of us are under any misconception that the other party will agree with our argument, of course.